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- This topic has 16 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 1 month ago by
Andy Shiers.
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June 9, 2009 at 2:11 pm #2546
JoeBolt
ParticipantI’m seeking some guidance on what is and what is not acceptable when logging pilot hours in your IMCA ROV Personnel Logbook.
Notes in the logbook state that it should be completed in line with the IMCA’s guidance on competence assurance and assessment, as contained in IMCA C 005.
I’ve read this document but can find no specific details when it comes to logging hours in Part 5 ‘Record of Work Experience’.
For example, let’s say that you are on a drill support job. The driller calls and tells you they are going to function a valve and he wants you to tell him when it moves. You undock from the TMS, fly to the worksite and use your grabber to hold onto the LRP. This takes 5 minutes. You then spend the next hour watching a valve open and close, doing little more than adjusting a camera zoom and relaying information to the drill floor. You then release from the LRP and 5 minutes later you are safely back in the TMS.
Do you log 10 minutes or 1 hour and 10 minutes?
June 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm #23621sean
ParticipantI’d call that 40mins. Ten for the flying and chop the rest in half, alot can go wrong when you’re sitting just watching. You are still in charge of the vehicle, its not as if you could stand up and walk away- so some ones flying it
June 9, 2009 at 3:10 pm #23622James McLauchlan
ParticipantIf you are the one on the sticks Log the whole time between leaving the TMS and returning to the TMS. If you are in the hot seat you are responsible for all vehicle movements no matter what the vehicle is doing.
Take aircraft pilots for example… If they are on a flight and autopilot is engaged they are not manually flying the plane but still need to be there to monitor events and take action should it be required. I would suggest that those hours are still logged as flying hours though.
Same would apply to an ROV.
June 9, 2009 at 5:25 pm #23623Andy Shiers
ParticipantI disagree with you there old chap , There’s flying and there is …….. 😕 well not flying 😯
Why don’t we put this in to something more of a factual and honest description shall we .
The number of hours flown dictates how easy you find the experience and how confident you feel in all aspects. The more hours flown increases the chances of more things ( Or scenerios ) happening and how you deal with these tasks increases your experience. With me so far ?
Now , If , by chance , all you are wanting to do is top up the hours as quickly as possible in order to a/ Gain a star from the Orifice , b/ Ask for extra money c/ Get your Imca Pilots licence or D / Brag about how many hours you have done to your colleagues…………… Go ahead and log them . But ……………what you need to do there JoeBolt is ask yourself whether it warrants putting hours latched onto a wellhead as experience 😯 I cetainly do not 😯
Because in the end ( Providing you stay in the Industry ) Believe me the hours clock up without kidding yourself into thinking you REALLY have flown the vehicle or not and the only person to be honest with is ……………yourself 8)
If you log the hours where they are NOT due …………………….
You could land yourself in VERY deep water 🙂
That’s just an honest opinion there friend , Take it or leave it 😛June 9, 2009 at 5:37 pm #23624ParticipantInteresting comparison to aircraft pilots. I also hold a Commercial Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplane). As an aeroplane pilot you are allowed to log ‘block to block’ time as flying hours.
The exact wording from my Civil Aviation Authority approved logbook states: –
‘The time the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off shall be regarded as the time of departure and the time the aircraft completes its normal taxying operation after landing shall be regarded as the time of arrival.’It means that you can log as flying hours the often considerable time spent taxying and waiting at the runway holding point for other traffic, ATC clearances, etc.
That’s fine for aeroplanes, but I just wondered if there are any laid down regulations for ROVs. But I do tend to agree with Lostboy, in that you really don’t want to be kidding yourself that you are more experienced and better than you really are.
June 9, 2009 at 5:55 pm #23625ROVRatt
ParticipantJames, with your scenario a trainee without any flying time can log up hundreds of hours. Picture the scenario; – Pilot flys to worksite and latches on. Gets bored waiting and puts the trainee in the pilots seat to monitor a pressure guage. Trainee logs hours watching as flying hours. This scenario is not impossible as I have been on a job where we latched on and watched and recorded a pressure guage for 8 days.
Trainee now goes to next job and tells supervisor he has 200 hours flying. Supervisor lets him fly for the first time and can’t believe how bad he is.
No, flying time should be actual time on the sticks when not in TMS/Cage or latched on. A pipeline or mooring inspection is flying time.
June 9, 2009 at 7:04 pm #23626Ray Shields
ParticipantIt is all academic as we all know that some people would put in the full 12 hours shift, others would put in 10 minues.
It is then signed by a person, could be any person, could be a company supervisor, could be an agency one – could be Micky Mouse!
Who has authorised the supervisor, what power does his signature have? Even more so, who says the Supervisor is competent (has he had any assessment training?).
OK, if you clock up hours in one company then you can see which supervisors have signed, but as you move about they just become names (and as I said it coudl be anyones name)
Personally, If you are sitting on the seabed, clamped on doing nothing or sitting in the TMS – you don’t count it.
Sitting in the seat "being in control" is not Piloting in my book.
June 9, 2009 at 7:10 pm #23627ParticipantSo 🙂
You agree with me then Ray 😀
That’s a first 😆June 9, 2009 at 9:06 pm #23628ParticipantInteresting that not even the IMCA can be bothered to issue guidance on what to log, and what not to log. On the ROV front it is obviously too grey an area for someone to want to take responsibility on issuing that kind of guidance.
Just ask your supervisor before you fill out the book. Then log what they will agree to.. if your supervisor will sign the hours off then there is no grey area…. or send me your book and I’ll sign it (joke!).
All I can say is that it’s a good job that, when I was sat diving, that they didn’t restrict us to only logging diving hours for when we were actually doing something!
June 9, 2009 at 11:18 pm #23629Jason
ParticipantJoebolt
I have found myself in a similar position and after speaking with those that have worked drill support for long periods the general consensus is book the actual flying time, any manip work etc and then all other time sat in the hot seat doing bugger all but using your eyes, book one third or what ever you feel comfortable with. As previously said if it all goes to ratshit on your watch then its up to you to do the right things ie dead sub recovery etc but having said that, at the end of the day its going to be you that looks a fool if you cant fly with hundreds of hours "apparent" experience. Find the happy medium!
June 10, 2009 at 4:59 am #23630ParticipantAaaagh 😀
The difference between actually flying ( racing car 8) ) and just ………….. Not 😯 ( Forklift truck ) 😀
You want proper flying hours , try and get on a DSV or Platform inspection.
As Nobber says ………………. Why don’t you think about it , whether it’s worthy of been put in your log book that you are doing exceptionally well at flying………………. Latched on to a wellhead 😕June 10, 2009 at 3:32 pm #23631luckyjim37
ParticipantThere is obviously a big split in attitude to logging hours. I agree if you are moving log it. In the TMS doing nothing does not really count which leaves the grey areas of holding on or sitting on the seabed.
Theoretically if you are on the seabed the chances are the verts at least will be turning as you will (unless trimmed heavy) be giving a command so therefore you are flying and should count it. Or do we say that as the vehicle is stationary it does not count. With all of the new shiney systems with position hold does this mean as soon as you select the ROV to hold position you stop logging your hours.
The other big problem is you find guys with a massive amount of hours doing the same task I am as guilty of this as anyone. Does 500 hours of Touch down monitioring quailify you to go on a full on construction job? I don’t think so.
Or as one log book I was asked to sign had several hundred hours ploughing logged the pilot then cumulatively logged his 16 hours workclass ROV time onto this.
It is not wrong as such but if only the last page is used as experience evidence then it is very misleading as in reality he would only be a trainee pilot on a free flying vehicle ,operationally at least.
Maybe IMCA should be lobbied to clarify the situation or possibly develop log books with sections for each type of flying. That would then assist trainees with piloting evidence as I am sure they are suppose to provide evidence of three types of flying or at least it was in the Sub Serv paperwork 10 years ago.
June 10, 2009 at 5:50 pm #23632Participant1 hour, 10 hours or a 1000 hours in a log book qualifies you for absolutly nothing. It gives an indication that you have had experience thats about it.
Again, we all know people with hundreds or thousands of hours logged and are still crap pilots!
Bottom line, it counts for nothing. I have a log book that has I think 800 hours in it, I stopped bothering 3 years after I was given it. No-ones ever asked me for any log book, or competency certs.
June 10, 2009 at 6:50 pm #23633ParticipantRay I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Does it really matter anyway.
At the end of the day, when all is said and done…….
If you are really pants someone will tell the office or post it on this site.
If you are really good someone will tell the office (since there is no wind up value it would not get posted on this site).
If the supervisor signs the book he is happy you did them hours or is not bothered and will sign anything.
Since there is no laid down right or wrong with regard to flying hours and nobody really looks in your book except the competency assessor to say you have done the hours.
It seems like a lot fo conversation for a very simple issue. Agree it onsite with the supervisor and go home to enjoy your time off.
Let the oncoming guys worry about hours.
June 10, 2009 at 8:47 pm #23634ParticipantI suppose it goes for years experience ……………………… Doesn’t it !
Twenty plus and you should by rights ……. know what you are talking about because you know more than sitting clamped to a wellhead or watching a pipeline being pulled ! 🙄 -
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