I came across this article !!

[nosub]

Survey suggests 70 per cent of students from ROV training centre are in jobs
Training – July 17, 2009

http://www.oilpubs.com

More than 70 per cent of ROV students from Scotland’s only ROV and diver training centre have secured relevant industry jobs, according to new market research released on July 16th.

The Underwater Centre, based in Fort William, surveyed 75 of its previous students in a bid to track their career progression and gain a comprehensive overview of the commercial success of its ROV pilot training courses.

Results from the survey suggest that 71 per cent of students who have undertaken an ROV course at The Underwater Centre since 2006 are now in employment, with the average taking only three months to find a post.

Findings also indicated that not only were students successful in finding relevant jobs, the average annual salary of those in employment was £42,750. In line with this, 92 per cent of the 75 students surveyed felt that training at The Underwater Centre made them more employable.

These latest figures reflect the growing demand for the Centre’s ROV courses – last year saw a 71 per cent increase in the uptake of ROV courses, compared to 2007.

With energy business analysts Douglas-Westwood forecasting that the deep water oil and gas sector will spend £112 billion between 2009 and 2013, the demand for trained and skilled ROV personnel looks set to continue.

In response to increasing industry demand and a desire to develop and deliver new courses, The Underwater Centre has made significant investment in its facilities in recent months.

New operational cabins, an ROV workshop and additional training modules such as manipulator operation and fibre optics, means that The Underwater Centre’s Fort William site has seen considerable modernisation and redevelopment.

The Centre’s location offers unique, industry relevant conditions for ROV training. Based on the shores of Loch Linnhe, which in parts is deeper than the North Sea, the site is sheltered by the heights of Ben Nevis, meaning it is accessible for training all year round.

Using the industry standard ROV, the Seaeye Falcons, the Premium ROV Course involves students being trained in flying, pipeline inspection, NDT investigation and seabed searching.

Steve Ham, general manager at The Underwater Centre believes the new market research underlines the benefit of the industry relevant courses being developed by the Fort William training facility. He said: ”Despite the recent economic downturn, the future for the ROV industry is predicted to be very successful. As the prices of oil and gas recover, the opportunities within this sector will in turn increase."

“The rise in ROV use outwith the oil and gas sector, in the rapidly expanding renewable energy industry, for example, is also set to make the next few years the most lucrative there have been for the ROV sector yet."

“In the same vein, the feedback we’re getting from equipment manufacturers suggests that many companies are already gearing up to meet the anticipated increase in demand.”

The Underwater Centre is the only training centre in the world that offers the full range of Health and Safety Executive (HSE) commercial diving qualifications in air and mixed gas diver training, from HSE scuba to HSE approved closed bell diving.

As well as the seawater dive site with a large range of underwater structures and facilities, The Underwater Centre has an enclosed dive training pool, purpose built welding bays, private pier, three barges with wet bell and closed bell training facilities, fully equipped lecture rooms and accommodation for up to 49 students.

[Ray Shields]

So the above is a free advertisment for The Underwater Centre?

They surveyed 75 people – out of how many that have been through the centre in the last 6 years – and how many of these 75 were sen there by companies that had already employed them and sent them there for training?

I assume they have extrapolated the figures and decided that because 70% of the 75 they spoke to had got jobs, 70% of ALL of the people who have attended also got jobs?

Lie, damned lies and statistics. 70% of people think that 50% of statistics are 30% useful.

What percentage of people who applied for ROV jobs got a job WITHOUT doing an ROV Training course?

[James McLauchlan]

I’m with Ray on this.

The so called Market research was carried out by the very establishment being cited in the article. It also appears that the article was in turn written as a press release by The Underwater Centre itself, so has to be seen as a nothing other than sales promotion rather than of any real factual interest.

The figures may well be accurate (for the given sample) but the group is way too narrow to be representative of the industry overall.

[rovnumpty]

My personal favourite bit is

‘Using the industry standard ROV, the Seaeye Falcons, the Premium ROV Course involves students being trained in flying, pipeline inspection, NDT investigation and seabed searching.’

Industry standard ROV? Is there such a thing?

And surely a hydraulic workclass of any shape or discription would be more of a ‘standard’ than an eyeball? But then they’re a bit more expensive to operate and maintain, especially in a training enviroment.

‘What’s that dirty,oily thing in the corner of the class room?’

‘Don’t worry about that, That’s a workclass. You won’t see any of them offshore anymore. The future’s electric.’

[PaulB]

“They surveyed 75 people – out of how many that have been through the centre in the last 6 years – and how many of these 75 were sent there by companies that had already employed them and sent them there for training?” – Ray Shields

In answer to your questions Ray (and James), we have had about 547 students (excluding the current class and a corporate client class) in the last 6 years.

I specifically excluded ALL corporate-client students from my survey. Furthermore, my survey went back over only the past 3 years since years 4 to 6 are less relevant. I then emailed every student address that I hold from that period. The last time I carried out a survey about 4 years ago, the success rate was about 95% – (have a look on page 3 of the following thread) where I identified all the employer companies

Used ROV (Class IIB or III)

You read my reply on;- http://www.rovworld.com/phpnuke/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=17482&highlight=#17482
I note that my reply was immediately moved to a new thread by the ROVWorld Forum Administrator and my reply hasn’t had any comments whatsoever since written 3 and-a-half months ago when I posted it – that is very unusual for this Forum!

Was this a method of concealing or burying my survey results? Interesting to note that the Forum Moderator, is also called Rayshields!

If my survey is so warped, biased and full of lies, then I seem to remember ROVworld did a similar survey in January 2009. You had similar results from your survey – 80% success rate from self-funding students undertaking ROV training and getting work, as I recall. When I searched for this survey in your “Site Navigator” under “Polls??” there are lots of polls listed, but no mention of your own survey that I just mentioned. After some trawling through your Forum pages, I eventually managed to find it at;

http://www.rovworld.com/phpnuke/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2222

If you don’t believe my survey, why don’t you look at your own survey results? Or are you going to suggest that The Underwater Centre has tampered with this too?

“Lies” is a dirty word Ray – and a serious accusation. If you are suggesting we are lying, please say so, otherwise please withdraw that comment. If you wish to visit The Underwater Centre and look at our results, you are more that welcome to do so since we have nothing to hide. Quite the contrary, since your one and only visit to our site with a corporate client on 23 March 2007, you will see that vast improvements, modernisation and investments to facilities and courses have taken place. At that time you said,

“I think you do supply a very good course compared to many others. It’s very intense and much better structured than ******** (though to be fair you are the experts in training!)”

You will see that we are even better now. Please come and see for yourself. If you are still living north of Fort William, I imagine you will pass our doorstep from time to time. This invitation goes out to you too, James – though I know Portugal is much further.

I don’t suggest that my survey results are flawless – they are however true and far more controlled and representative than anything that I have seen anywhere else. They are as controlled as is possible since I can trace every contributor. Most employers are also listed.

If you have one shred of evidence or survey to suggest paying for an ROV training course will not significantly help you to get ROV work, I would like to see this. Your survey (for what it is worth) simply confirms what we say, that undertaking an ROV training course (at The Underwater Centre at least) will significantly improve your chances of getting ROV work.

Hopefully this will convince you that the advice you give (incessantly on this website) about not paying for ROV training courses is wrong (at least with respect to The Underwater Centre). You give lots of good advice on other subjects with which I agree, but please don’t give bad advice to rookies regarding this subject.

As many of you will find, there is a lot of information and mis-information on this website (that is the nature of anonymous forums) where some people/organisations (and I don’t here suggest you Ray or James) use such media to discredit others for their own purposes.

Paul Bury
Head of ROV Training & Operations
The Underwater Centre (Fort William)
http://www.theunderwatercentre.co.uk
email; info@theunderwatercentre.co.uk

[Savante]

my poll is a daily reminder to me that I should keep my gob shut on occassion. 😆

It’s flawed to the point of being an embarassment.

Negativity is pish…. what can we do to get a nice graph that shows people good quality data regarding getting training and what you need to get into an rov company?

"Lies, Damned lies and statistics" – Benjamin Disraeli (former British PM).

[Excableguy]

It isn’t so much the guys that got work that we should seek comment from.
The guys that got work will have the proper trade qualifications inline with the IMCA standard.

I wonder how many of the waiters, painters and decorators, or those without formal trade qualifications that were trained in any of the schools are now working for an ROV company?

There is little doubt that the course is useful for those that are properly trained.

The course is a waste of time for those without the IMCA required standard of qualifications and work experience, all the schools, including Fort William, know it. Why don’t they admit it? — Income stream perhaps?

Please be honest and stop robbing the dreamers!!!

[rigwash]

well you can’t fault paul b for his reply and i don’t doubt his facts if he stands by them.

however i always followed the maxim of not trusting any advice where the giver stood to gain from the advice.

james and ray have nothing to gain financially or personally from the advice they have given (no vested interest)

i don’t think any one is saying the fort bill course is of a less standard than any other. in fact i would think the contary that it’s probably one of the best

what people are commenting on is the value of a course in securing a job. just cause a bloke did the course and got a job dosen’t necessarily translate that the course got him the job…..ahh statistics. a survey would probably show a large percentage of those that got rov jobs drank tea that day. so would you think drinking tea would help you get the job? judging by statistics being a piss head seems to help as well

i think what people are saying is: doing a course won’t do you any harm, it may even help. but the money might be better spent getting your offshore medical and survival, doing an in depth elctronic or hydraulics course. then flying yourself to the companies door step and showing keeness by visiting them regularly.

even then you may not get work but hey thats what the offshore industry’s like. there is no sure route in (except for free masons and relations of the op’s manager). It’s no use constantly asking will a course help, will it gaurantee a job?.. is the market picking up? ..should i try company a or company b, can anybody help me?….if you need that sort of direction or reassurance you should try macdonalds….heard there is a good career path there….pussies!…just go for it man

[James McLauchlan]

Paul

Thanks for taking the time to respond to posts on your news/publicity release and comments made thereof.

With regard to a reply of yours being split off into a new topic.
I think you will find that it was I that split your reply away from the original thread which I believe was actually a discussion on Subnet services. At the time I gave the thread a new topic title (The Underwater Centre (Fort William) – Course Feedback ) and also edited the post when creating the new thread to explain why the split was made.

Note from Forum admin: This post was split away, from the discussion on Subnet Services, to create another topic for The Underwater Centre (Fort William) – Course Feedback. This action was taken to prevent the Subnet services topic going off topic. Please feel free to discuss The Underwater Centre (Fort William) below.

I have nothing to gain or lose from making such judgement calls, other than continuing in my efforts to keep the house in order and prevent threads going off topic. There was no subversive attempt on my part to suppress your response and the new thread was available for all to see and respond to if they so wish. It would also have appeared on the front page of the site under the last most recent posts.

For those unaware of what was written by Paul at the time, (Posted: 03:04 Fri 3rd Apr 2009) and to save you heading off to another topic on the same training school, the content of the post was as follows:

Hi Des_b,
Thanks for your input.

8-12 on the course, we all finished but as I wrote only the four of us that I know of got jobs – only because I lost touch with the others. Skills wise, the other guys who got jobs were: degree student in enviro studies and geography (If he’s reading this, sorry TJB if I got it wrong ) , ex merchant seamen mechie and the other guy was (i think) a gym instructor in his last job, but I cant be sure of that. Again if he reads this sorry M if I got it wrong!!!!
The other guys – 2 french guys one was a ex navy sparky, a ex fishing boat captain and a WO2 from the guards who was leaving the army in a years time. I dont know what happened with them……

There was another course being run staggered to ours but I have no idea on the skill base or success rate. I imagine the pass rate was almost 100%, Paul Bury will be able to clarify that, as he is the chief instructor there.

In reply to Des_b,
From the two classes (ROV 88 and ROV 89) of 8 and 4 to which you refer, the last that I was aware, LP is with Fugro, BT is with Searov, DM is with ISS, MM popped in to Fort William three weeks ago to say "Hello", and he is with Hallin Marine, TB emailed me yesterday saying he will be offshore for another 7 days – he didn’t say who with though, JG has been working offshore and had an interview with TS Marine and I haven’t heard since, so that is 7 out of 8 who I know have secured work offshore. In the other class of 4, SB is with Canyon, BK is working for Subocean. I have never heard from GE, ED or NM. If they are reading this, please let me know how you are getting along, and/or if you need any help. (If anyone has moved on since I compiled this data – sorry)

That is at least 9 out of 12 ex-Fort William students (including yourself) who have secured work from the period when you were with us.

Despite what a small minority of "knockers" say, these are facts that the "experts" on this site fail to mention. As some of you will know – I carried out a survey in February. We had a 25% response rate of 60 ex-students out of about 250. Between 75% and 80% of our ex-students over a three year period have secured ROV work! Des_b’s class is typical. The vast majority of successful ex-students never return to this web site to share their experience since they consider it is full of b.s. and self-opinionated prima-donnas who try brow-beating them or give them abuse. I have hundreds of emails saying as much from my ex-students.

If anyone wants some more facts and figures, please have a look at my other postings – there are now 10 I think. This may put things into perspective.

As many of you will see, there is a lot of information and mis-information on this website (that is the nature of anonymous forums) where some people/organisations use such media to discredit others for their own purposes.

Paul Bury
Head of ROV Training & Operations,
The Underwater Centre (Fort William)
Email; info@theunderwatercentre.co.uk
http://www.theunderwatercentre.co.uk
Tel (+44)(0) 1397 703 786

and my reply hasn’t had any comments whatsoever since written 3 and-a-half months ago when I posted it – that is very unusual for this Forum!

Not sure what your point is here, and I can see you have chosen your words very carefully, but your comments appears to suggest (to me at least) that something underhand has gone on. I can confirm that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody is deleting posts that conform to our forum guideline as it’s counter-productive to good debate.

I said in my post above

The figures may well be accurate (for the given sample) but the group is way too narrow to be representative of the industry overall.

I do feel that when you put out such a release, which appears to me to be an obvious ploy to draw in more people to train at your establishment (lets face it you are hardly looking for pat on the back) then you are going to leave yourself open to it being brought out into the open and discussed in ROV forums around the world, and why not?

Which begs the question as to the timing of the news release (aka sales plug). Is it that already you are seeing a downturn and felt the need to try and stem the reduction noted by your sales stats?

My obvious thought being that the Fort Bill school needs to make money and therefore will continue to advertise for, and train, people whether the industry needs it or not.

[James McLauchlan]

Results from the survey suggest that 71 per cent of students who have undertaken an ROV course at The Underwater Centre since 2006 are now in employment, with the average taking only three months to find a post.

It stands to reason that the survey also suggests that 29% of students who have undertaken an ROV course at The Underwater Centre since 2006 are now NOT in employment or have never found an job in ROV

That’s a lot of money spent on thin air for those people that failed to get work 🙁

The only real winner here is of course the training establishment. They get what they want out of it every time no matter what the end result may be for the student.

Just to show good will, and commitment to the future of their students, how about the School makes an offer of no cure no pay?

For example: If you train with us and do not find an ROV job within 12 months we will refund your course fees in full!

That might quieten a few of the sceptics on here.

[Scott Beveridge]

BRIL !!!! Absolutely, bril !

[Anonymous]

"70% of people think that 50% of statistics are 30% useful"

Now that’s funny!

[Mike Kidd]

The other 30% do’nt give a shit

[James McLauchlan]

The other 30% do’nt give a shit

That might entirely depend on whether you are part of that 30% (almost) that paid for a course, passed it and didn’t get ROV work!

The cost of these courses is not small beer to those that are not going to earn…….

the average annual salary of those in employment was £42,750

It’s all packaged too slickly for my liking.

[Scott Beveridge]

James,

I think there was a poster who gave a pretty good rundown on the Ozzie course (in Fremantle??? – correct??) and I believe he / she stated that the school vets the candidates for a TRADE first and actually requires a said persons to have a relative trade. That would be the school to go to folks.

To the school(s) management and admin.: it’s extremely frustrating when a graduate can not even use the simplest of hand tools (safely) without supervision.

[Author]

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