Pathetic Payrises… But oil at all time high..

[Scott Beveridge]

Outstanding James!!

I’ve said it at least twice here that the individuals (an apropos word if ever) in this industry have little or zero solidarity. It rings so true…

I just wonder if some of the people that knocked the idea of a Yuni0n weren’t in fact some management – type folks… Long term vision by the diving industry finally won. And if I may add that indeed, divers are a lot tighter as a team than ROV personnel (I was never a diver – just an observer). And for those of you who were around in Singapore in the days of "that particular association" – at the Mitre Hotel no less…. Jeff, you still around?? PM me if you are… The outcome of that association should’ve never happened in that manner

Back to the drawing board anybody?? James, do you want a different job / nomination (you can take the EU and UK sectors)? I’m bloody well ready for this on this side of the world!! Anybody else with the brass cajones??

[Andy Shiers]

I’ll join your Uni0n James 😀

[Scott Beveridge]

Okay folks, there’s 4 of us. Anybody else????Can word of mouth work exponentially?? Yes it can and does!!!

[James McLauchlan]

………………… And if I may add that indeed, divers are a lot tighter as a team than ROV personnel (I was never a diver – just an observer). And for those of you who were around in Singapore in the days of "that particular association" – at the Mitre Hotel no less…. Jeff, you still around?? PM me if you are… The outcome of that association should’ve never happened in that manner

I was around in those times. I remember when I started offshore as a diver in 1985 there was no such solidarity. Companies were doing then with divers what they do now with ROV personnel. If any hint of common action started to appear the diving company management would employ a method whereby they would pull individuals to one side (i.e. phone them at home) and offer them ‘special’ deals. By that I mean…. ‘We are looking after you but don’t tell anyone else’. They would do that until the back on any cohesive action had cracked. Next season the companies would start at square one again based on supply and demand.

In the late 80’s, when a particular Uni0n did surface as a leading contender.. predominately made up of divers who knew what they wanted, the (then) AODC went to the NUS and offered them the chance to represent the divers knowing full well that the NUS had no clue as to what diving was all about. It took time but eventually the NUS started to get the idea. Later they merged with the Railway and Transport Uni0ns and the RMT came about. By then the NUS arm of the new uni0n had some clue as to which direction to head. More divers joined until the RMT was indeed a force to be reckoned with. The rest you know. It took some years before the RMT was able to take on the might of the AODC but when they did, they had all their ducks in a row and the divers backed the action.

The ROV industry is years away from that and as long as this individual approach to negotiation continues income will rarely be commensurate with experience/knowledge/qualifications.

Me as a Uni0n organiser? I have been asked by the RMT to consider representing ROV offshore but had to respectfully decline.
For a start ROVworld.com cannot be seen to be a pro-active extension of uni0n representation. We can offer up uni0n information/news if requested to do so in the same we we publish other industry news. We do however need to remain impartial in the way we offer industry information.

Next: I currently work in an offshore management position. It would not be in my best interested, nor that of the company I work for, to take on a uni0n role. Not sure my bank manager would like the idea too much either! Having said that you of course must realise that I am not opposed to Uni0ns nor what they represent as long as their aims are achieve reasonable pay and conditions for their members but at the same time allow the job to go on. We really do not want to see what went on with the coal mines years ago nor what is going on with the Uni0ns down in Oz at present.

There is always a middle line that can be followed. That approach I am for. Right now I do genuinely feel that rates and conditions of pay are severely lacking in the EU sector and world wide for that matter (except maybe Oz) and this does need addressing.

There is a section in the Forum created for Uni0n discussions. Rev it up by all means as that is what it’s there for. Get something going and build it to a position of strength but please … there is no sense in a few posts then a call for a ‘Strike’. You need to get more and more people interested in joining the RMT (or whatever your local countries uni0n is) and start work from there.

If we take the UK into account. There cannot be a two tier Uni0n system. so join one and work as one group. Go with the majority in uni0n choice and work as one group. Keep with Engineering Uni0n v RMT debate up an you won’t event get off the starting blocks. The most voted for uni0n was the RMT so… join it and start putting pressure on the Uni0n management to produce results. You do not have to be an appointed uni0n rep to do this. Just email and start asking questions.

[T-Boy]

I’m in, and I’m in Blighty when not all at sea.

P.S – ‘D’ , Tak drop me a line mate, Ta. T.

[James McLauchlan]

Something tells me that this will end up being one of the all time highs on views and responses.

The subject title alone is worrying enough to make those forum members, whom comprise management, in a number of well known offshore companies have a quick scan of the content.

To the rest… don’t drop this one in the pan. Be constructive and we’ll see what comes of it.

Oops…. and I forgot to add… it’s only Saturday (in some places of the world) wait until Monday when strangely, although people in offices are supposed to be working on company time, the number of company registered IP addresses accessing the site seems to take a rise during working hours 😉

[James McLauchlan]

bump

[OILC_neil]

It seems to me that there is no value produced without our labour. At it’s simplest, you have to at least pick an apple off the tree, and make it available to the hungry, in order to have imparted value to that apple. It has no value lying rotting underneath the tree.

The colossal profits of the Shells and BPs and the growing profits, I guess, of the ROV employers, is down to us. No matter how favourable market conditions are, without us, without our labour, there would be no oil and no profits let alone superprofits.

The employers pay us as little as they can get away with. The less they pay, the more they keep. If they can move production to low wage areas they will. If they can import low cost labour they will (as long as that labour has the skills to do the job). If they can keep wages just high enough to keep you working, and the job running, they will. And the way they traditionally do this is by bargaining from a position of strength. They are big corporations, or are in cartels, and they negotiate with us as individuals. They threaten, bully and “make examples” of us when all else fails.

The answer seems obvious if not easy, because potentially we have the stronger hand. We produce the wealth and theoretically at least, we can stop producing it. But we need to be united in order to negotiate from our potential position of strength. That is what a trade uni0n is. Joining a trade uni0n can solve some of your problems immediately – for example it can offer you the legal support you might need if your employer decided that you are going to be the “example” that’s going to encourage the rest to keep their heads down. The uni0n will also fight your corner if your employer maims you in the process. But the hard bit is organising the strength from which we can negotiate agreements that reward us in good years. Agreements that we can use to defend ourselves in the bad years.

There are precedents that we can learn from. The Norwegian oilfield is solidly organised and conditions are far superior to the UK oilfield or indeed anywhere else I’ve ever been. Yes Norway has specific conditions and a specific history that has perhaps worked in the favour of the workers there. But the bottom line is that Norwegian oil workers have solidly organised in their uni0ns. These uni0ns support RMT/OILC and will help us as we help ourselves. It is in their interest anyway to do so. And the agreements that they have won are in many cases with our very employers. The Norwegian workers have, in a sense, shown us what our employers are prepared to concede if we organise effectively.

So joining the uni0n is an important step, but only a first step. Recruiting your colleagues, organising your workplace, formulating your demands and sticking together is the bit that needs the work put in on it. It seems like this forum is the first step at self organisation. Joining OILC/RMT would be the logical next step. But remember, the uni0n is not people who do things for you. It’s you and your colleagues sticking together. And the step after that, I guess, would be to get speaking to the Norwegian ROVers. I’m confident OILC could facilitate that.

neil

[Bacaruda]

Right Guy’s,

lets get the ball rolling and do what I have done, print off Neils reply and stick it on the wall of the shack for everybody to read.

[James McLauchlan]

For those that may be unaware of Neil’s take on all this… a closer look at his Forum username will tell you that he is an appointed representative of the OILC so therefore is writing with a view to centralising ROV Uni0n interest here.

He really does need some feedback from ROV guys on what people are looking for. Please take a look over in the Uni0n section of this Forum and respond accordingly.

In particular go to ——–> This Thread

[SewerPipe]

We really do not want to see what went on with the coal mines years ago nor what is going on with the Uni0ns down in Oz at present.

Just wondering what is wrong with what has happened in OZ? Pay rates have increased significantly, we have overcycle rates, income protection paid for(some agreements), loyalty and bonus schemes being introduced and all this without any threat of industrial action or stop work.

The only threats that have been made throughout the whole process have been by some of the operators. Getting organised and speaking as one voice has enabled us to get our concerns across. Not all of the results have been what we wanted but on the whole the pay and conditions have improved. Ultimately all of the agreements were voted in by the us and it was our decision.

I have been reading this and other forums. When are you guys going to stop talking and take action if you are so unhappy. You will never change things individually, the industry is too fragmented.

It is not about being greedy, I agree we get paid well, but we are still, in relation to some other professions within the industry lagging behind. GET OFF YOUR BEHINDS, STOP WHINGING AND TAKE ACTION.

[James McLauchlan]

You are quoting me there.

In response….

I think Uni0n’s are useful to a certain level but not when they create problems for the country as a whole. The coal miners strikes years back almost brought the UK economy to it’s knees. The miners Uni0n ended up so powerful that the government had to do something to prevent damage to the country’s economy in the longer term. Maggie stepped in and that was the end of one powerful uni0n.

and all this without any threat of industrial action or stop work.

In Oz I agree that the Uni0n has made good progress with conditions and pay and overall the result has been fair. Although this year I did see first hand an email from one vessel (in Oz) stating that, among training concerns, regular newspaper & video delivery plus stocks of confectionery needed to be addressed or "the next crew change would not take place".

I viewed that as nothing other than a threat of ‘stop work’.

Yes, a Uni0n has it’s place in the Offshore industry as it does in any other industry, but the people behind it need to be mindful of it becoming too powerful and overstepping the mark to the point where legislation might be changed (as happened in the UK) to keep uni0ns weaker than they might ordinarily need to be. So a fair balance needs to be the way forward IMHO.

I do agree that, in the UK sector, operators have an unfair advantage at present and that does need addressing sooner rather than later. As website admin, being uni0n members ourselves, and having created the boards to discuss Uni0n matters plus openly supporting the idea there isn’t much more we can do now other than hope that people start climbing aboard, join the RMT/OILC S100 branch and start letting them know what needs addressing first.

Having been on many a job where, behind closed doors, people whine and bleat about lagging pay & conditions but seem very reluctant to actually step forward and do anything about it once ashore. We have even set up one of the boards so that members can hide behind anonymity of a forum username and need to be verified as uni0n members before they can have access to the board (or even see it for that matter) so that they may post views and ideas openly without fear of retribution.

[Pascobalbodeano]

Unfortunatly I don’t agree with the whole Un10n thing.

I am new to this industry having transfered from the marine side of things. Having spent 14 years as a member of a marine Un10n and all I got was a paper every month. All the talk of solidarity goes out the window when it suits them. Having gone through 14 years of pay negogiations and getting right royally shafted every single year; my mind is made up. Even to the point where we knew how much of a budget the company had for a pay rise and then seeing how much all the ships were asking for, then getting an e-mail from the industrial officer saying then disagreed and asked for 3%. The next one so beng invited to a meeting between the un10n and the company, the industrial officer and the company rep arrived from the same hotel having been out the day before!!

I’m sorry but my mind is made up on this one boys. Too many bad experiences and wasted money.

Pascobal

[James McLauchlan]

I appreciate your comments but also note that you are new to an industry that, for years, has is regularly seen it workers seen off by their employers. There is room for improvement for sure.

[Author]

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