Take a pay cut or not??

[luckyjim37]

Just another one of my off the wall thoughts that just occured to me. I am English so really what the day rates are for an Austrailian ROV operator living in Austrialia and paying tax to that country is not overly relevant to me. If it is all so good over there then why do you come accross so many outside of Australia.

Over the last ten years I have been sat in a chair knowing the person to the left of me earned more and the person to right earned less even though in theory we were all the same level.

I personally assess each job offer and day rate offer on the merits of the job. I get more money from some companies/agencies than others. There are places I want to work so I may consider and that might be a factor. As there is no day rate agreement in place and no sign of one in the near future what you work for is inidvidual choice.

[luckyjim37]

Maybe I do try to play devils advocate sometimes but in reality if we all agreed with everything all of the time where would the debate be.

[James McLauchlan]

You work in a global industry.. stop being so selfish (Jack) in your outlook.

I sense justification for ill conceived input/ideas.

[turtle]

As a consumer, I reap the benefits when the world produces a surplus of tomatoes or Toyotas. Hooray for me, cheap prices. Supply and demand. Economics 101.

Today there is a surplus of ROV bodies. Hooray for the demon employers. Cheap labor.

Two years ago the exhange on the pound stood at over two dollars. I’m the first to woe the demise of the pound by 25 percent but my chance of changing the course of the economics of a country whose currency is in the toilet by "boycotting" employment are about as good as the chance that sitting out the current downturn will raise the rates. You have a pile of crap in one hand and a pile of moral indignation in the other and at the end of the day, my friend, you have a smelly hand.

Sit out for a month, a year, ten years, waiting for the "return to normal". You’ll find that those cursed furriners that have been undercutting your wage have been recruited to fill your spot and now have a hold on present technologies. You’re a few years behind on the latest equipment updates and please go to the back of the queue sir, there are others more qualified for the position.

I operate as a small business, adjusting the business plan accordingly with respect to the fluctuating supply/demand of what I take in and what goes out. There may come a day when the wage or pound dives so low that I choose to stay home and watch Simpson reruns. But if your choice is to refuse work because you don’t like the economics of the way the world works, do not pass judgement on those who choose to "stay in business". Cry in your beer with your fellow holdouts–I’m sure there’ll be full reward in an afterlife–but in the meantime please step aside and let the rest of us get on with reality.

[centurion]

2010 Buggy whips for sale

[Joel]

As a consumer, I reap the benefits when the world produces a surplus of tomatoes or Toyotas. Hooray for me, cheap prices. Supply and demand. Economics 101.

Today there is a surplus of ROV bodies. Hooray for the demon employers. Cheap labor.

Two years ago the exhange on the pound stood at over two dollars. I’m the first to woe the demise of the pound by 25 percent but my chance of changing the course of the economics of a country whose currency is in the toilet by "boycotting" employment are about as good as the chance that sitting out the current downturn will raise the rates. You have a pile of crap in one hand and a pile of moral indignation in the other and at the end of the day, my friend, you have a smelly hand.

Sit out for a month, a year, ten years, waiting for the "return to normal". You’ll find that those cursed furriners that have been undercutting your wage have been recruited to fill your spot and now have a hold on present technologies. You’re a few years behind on the latest equipment updates and please go to the back of the queue sir, there are others more qualified for the position.

I operate as a small business, adjusting the business plan accordingly with respect to the fluctuating supply/demand of what I take in and what goes out. There may come a day when the wage or pound dives so low that I choose to stay home and watch Simpson reruns. But if your choice is to refuse work because you don’t like the economics of the way the world works, do not pass judgement on those who choose to "stay in business". Cry in your beer with your fellow holdouts–I’m sure there’ll be full reward in an afterlife–but in the meantime please step aside and let the rest of us get on with reality.

Spot on. The rates in Asia and the rest of the world for personnel rose exponentially to the amount of work ongoing and the lack of trained expertise available (it was just far more noticeable in Asia because the rates were crap for so long both for employees and employers). At the same time the rates to clients rose to meet the economics. Now work has slowed and the market is back to fiercer competition thus rates are slowly going south and consequently so are the day rates paid or offered to day raters. Fact of life, sad it may be but it has always been like this and is not just related to ROV’s…..Supply V Demand

[Andy Shiers]

Good retort there Turtle 🙂
But If you are Green , Newbie or Inexperienced and you are going through an agency ( Which means you are going cheap OR you are being paid the same amount of money as me whilst I go through an agency )
I will assist in helping this ROVs……… "Supply and demand"
In this current sorry state of affairs called a Recession and…………………
Still Run you off 😀
As you say 🙂 Dog eat Dog 😀
I would prefer to shoot them my self as I’m a pussy lover 😉

[James McLauchlan]

A balanced response by turtle….

I’m sure nobody is suggesting that experienced hands sit at home for months on end in the busy season and gradually lose touch with the industry eventually giving way to cheap labour. On the other hand experienced ROV crew would be following a destructive path if they are considering taking a 50GBP cut over the previous season nor (I would suggest) should they contemplate going to Oz on about half the MUA rate as highlighted in an earlier post.

I agree, one person will not change the economics of a country, but then hundreds of thousands can’t either (as we have seen in recent UK economic history) so nothing of a revelation there.

I have never taken a reduction in day rate since I have been in the game and I’ve survived quite well thank you. I would suggest only those with little experience, struggle with English, few contacts in the game and the inability to sell themselves will be the ones contemplating such a cut just to stay in the game. Give it a season or so and the correction will have been made and the weak ones culled, as it always is.. that is unless these schools keep pumping out so called PTII’s and continue to flood the market with those that will work for next to bugger all! Of course with the sate of our game they can work for next to bugger all.. or go out for free! Laugh you may but some South African divers were doing in the early 70’s. That stopped when the UK RMT divers agreement (ODIA) came into force around 1974.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realise that all this pressure on rates (in the UK at least) stems from no agreement being in place…. if there were ‘set rates’ then cheap foreign labour (Filipinos ROV trainees at SS7 spring to mind) would be out of the picture completely and stability in rates would be the norm. (Note.. to the best of my knowledge there are no Filipino diver trainees in the UK system).

In the UK Divers run a business also.. yet somehow they are getting a rise in rates this year and have done so for the last couple of years. In Oz Divers have agreed rates… are either groups taking a cut this year?

Who are the wiser businessmen then, ROV people taking cuts or divers taking a pay rise?

It is clearly the ROV companies and Agencies running the business and, if allowed, they will continue to jerk ROV around for time immemorial.
Individual ‘Jack’ ROV types are the ones being jerked around because they feel that the way forward is to not have an agreement in place on rates.. that is why we are even having to discuss cheap labour and (as turtle suggests) having to consider that you might be replaced by cheap foreign labour in the UK.

So people…

Swallow the bitter pill of allowing your industry to go down the pan by remaining as a ‘non-collective’ bunch of disjointed individual ‘jack the lads’, take a pay cut and get one step closer to those cheap labour rates the companies love so much!

Note: if the term ‘non-collective’ doesn’t exist in the English language it should do…

non-collective: A large number of individual ROV’s operators who feel that going it alone is better than grouping together for the common good.

I’m sorry of this sounds a little like too much of a reality check, or overly harsh to some, but that is how I see it and probably how other looking from the outside in would too.

……and please nobody try and convince me that when the good times come back freelance agency hands will be coining it in as they will be on more than staff.. that is old news and I predict it will never happen again in this game. At best, agency hands will be on the same as staff but without any other company perks.

regards
James Mc

[Robert Branch]

Ive just found this article in the West Australian today,not really ROV related but Im sure alot of ROV companies in Oz will be involved in this massive project.I wonder what the dayrates will be….350 pound a day??
I think I may have to change my career and become a semi skilled concreter on $ 140,000 AUD a year…

Thousands of low-skilled construction workers on the massive Gorgon LNG project will each earn about $150,000 a year under a deal which will set a new WA wages benchmark.

Construction union boss Kevin Reynolds said Gorgon tradesmen would become the industry’s highest-earning workers in WA and would be on par with the best paid in Australia.

Calculations by the Master Builders Association show the union agreement with contractor Thiess would deliver wages of nearly $3000 a week, including allowances, to semi-skilled employees such as concrete workers and labourers.

Separate calculations by the Australian Mines and Metals Association show qualified tradesmen such as excavators would get at least $160,000 annually.

The Thiess agreement signed last month will cover thousands of workers building the accommodation village on Barrow Island off the Pilbara coast. The Chevron project’s total workforce will swell to up to 10,000 during peak construction of the $43 billion gas plant.

Mr Reynolds, secretary of the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, said: "I think it’s probably equal to any of the best paying construction jobs in Australia and is the most lucrative in WA.

"They are getting the big money because they will be working very long hours in some of the harshest conditions in the world."

MBA industrial spokesman Kim Richardson, who calculated the $150,000 salary based on an expected 70-hour week, said the deal would have a serious impact on commercial and residential construction.

Mr Richardson said metropolitan employers would be unable to match the wages paid by mining and resources contractors.

This would drain the city of tradesmen, forcing a blow-out in local building times and putting pressure on prices.

AMMA spokesman Geoff Bull said the project offered slightly higher remuneration through better site allowances and leave arrangements compared with other resource projects because of its remoteness and quarantine requirements.

Under the Thiess agreement, employees would get a nine-day break every 26 days, as well as four to five weeks of annual leave.

The agreement, also signed by the Australian Workers Union, includes an arrangement called "Special Gorgon Leave" which provides an extra 34 hours paid leave, or 3½ days, for every 26 days that is worked without industrial action or other disruptions.

The deal provides superannuation in addition to the salary.

Mr Reynolds said Gorgon would replace Pluto and Cape Preston as the best-paying jobs in WA.

Mining giant Woodside recently claimed Pluto LNG project workers earned at least $140,000 annually, though several tradesmen disputed this with claims of lower pay.

That project has been plagued by a dispute over "motelling", under which workers are given a different accommodation unit each work cycle instead of having a permanent unit.

Chevron, which runs Gorgon, would not comment. Thiess could not be contacted.

[senior]

Well lads??/ladets??,

Anyone else going to take a pay cut for the same work, the thread went cold, lets get it back on track.

Senior $$

[Scott Beveridge]

Well lads??/ladets??,

Anyone else going to take a pay cut for the same work, the thread went cold, lets get it back on track.

Senior $$

Senior,

Still finding a lot of ROV personnel going out cheap / cheaper. Surveyors getting paid more than us…. riggers etc. Let me think….. What needs to be done?????? Hmmmmmm….. I wonder.

[Robert Branch]

Well Ive been in touch with the MUA and the Australian taxation office here in Australia with regards to all the cheapskate agencies such as Subserv Pro,Rumic etc supplying personell to CTC Marine projects on the cheap for projects carried out in Australia.Iam trying to gather more evidence and they are looking into it…Are there any more Australian ROV personell out there who would like to see something done about this bullshit,or am I the only one…Oh and Im still sat at home after turning down agency work,and I will continue to sit at home unless Iam offered the going rate..Hope theres more of you not too mortgaged up willing to do the same…Mind you there are some greedy f–kers out there…

[Robert Branch]

Sorry I missed out the bit that I had actually been in touch with the ATO to report an industry trend,in that there are companies working in Australia offshore and employing personell on the cheap through UK based agencies,and not paying Australian taxes…This is going to become more and more exposed believe me..

[James McLauchlan]

Good on you surf91. Anything that stops agreed Oz MUA rates from being undermined plus exposes the perpetrators to the Oz authorities has to be a good thing.

I hope you do indeed get help from your Oz counterparts.

[liddelljohn]

They might also want to look into the Australian companies, agents and officials that are encouraging and facilitating undermining of MUA agreements and rates.
it takes 2 to tango.

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