Exclusive: ”Paper mill” owner details Reminded me of MTCS

[Lenny]

Exclusive: Paper mill owner details his lucrative academic fraud business

I read this article on Yahoo today. It reminded me of MTCS, except we actually do all the paperwork etc. MTCS just prints out a cert and collects the money.

How a paper mill works:

Most of the students requesting paper mill services are undergraduates, but some are in high school or pursuing a Master’s degree or Ph.D.

“I have a math guy who does math, a nursing guy who does nursing, a writing guy who does writing,” Moe says when asked about his five part-time employees.

Moe began as a tutor making $75 a day. Now, he estimates he makes between $600-$700 a day and about $15,000 a month (or approximately $180,000 a year). In the video above, Moe claims that his paper mill made $21,000 in October 2018.

Asked whether or not he’s ever felt remorse for his work, Moe responded: “I don’t know. I’ve never thought about it. Been too busy to think about it.” Moe noted that his wife and his aunt don’t like his lucrative paper mill.

People are always going to find a way to cheat’

Despite that, no one has been caught so far using his paper mill services and Moe claimed that it is because “professors do not care.”

“They don’t even mind that much,” he said. “They are lazy. At the end of the day, people are always going to find a way to cheat. No matter what the situation is, no matter what school you go to, students are always finding ways to get through the system.”

Yahoo Finance reached out to three New York-based universities to ask how they combat academic fraud, like the students who use Moe’s business, but each said it did not have time to comment on the issue.

Exclusive: Paper mill owner details his lucrative academic fraud business

[jaso]

Mr bazinga
so what you are saying is that the MTSC Cert is just a scam, that us the participants do all the work for something we dont really need.(and pay for)
Our log book seamans book CV and Qualifications in Electronics or mechanics or said field , a reference from last job and an interview done by phone or email should really be enough. Why do we have to be approved by someone who has never met us and has never seen us work and knows nothing about us at all.
Like you say it could all be faked to obtain this Cert, that is a new thing as i am starting to recall
I got my first job offshore by sending in my qualifications and a lengthy interview over the phone. Other jobs later in my career where done the same or i was recommended by someone i had worked with who had been working a lot longer than me and regonnised my skill set
Why has this all changed?
Why do we have to have this assessment Cert anyway which expires ?
My electrical qualifications do not expire, my BA does not expire !
After so long working in the industry you can tell if someone is any good or not with in a day or so.
Is this not how most other companies acquire staff onshore? What makes us so different all of a sudden?
I see no problem with in house assessment done at the worksite by the company you work for. To see if you need a pay rise(move up a rank) or if you are having trouble with any parts of the job, which they intern can help you with. I.e not everyone knows how to write procedures or rewrite them for a work scope that has not been done before. Things change at sea all the time.
I seem to be constantly paying for useless pieces of paper that i dont really need as i see my wages go down.
its wrong that we are constantly being made to pay for the luxury of doing our jobs.

[James MacDonald]

Jaso you are right in house assessment is the best way however most companies relay it onto an external verifier in our case MTCS.
I do disagree that we are paying for luxury of doing our jobs lets face it it works out as less than a days pay for a cert renewal.
Forklift drivers the construction industry has many renewal certificates, riggers on the deck need to renew certs every few years. We are not alone in needing to keep competence certification in date.

I think as well companies like to keep competence certificate issuing external as it stops any question of them just printing certificates off for their staff.

[Lenny]

Jaso you are right in house assessment is the best way however most companies relay it onto an external verifier in our case MTCS.
I do disagree that we are paying for luxury of doing our jobs lets face it it works out as less than a days pay for a cert renewal.
Forklift drivers the construction industry has many renewal certificates, riggers on the deck need to renew certs every few years. We are not alone in needing to keep competence certification in date.

I think as well companies like to keep competence certificate issuing external as it stops any question of them just printing certificates off for their staff.

WOW ROVSUP123,

I can’t believe you just said this!

I do disagree that we are paying for luxury of doing our jobs lets face it it works out as less than a days pay for a cert renewal.

That’s the problem! Just pay the money, even though you’re getting nothing, as long as you get on the job.

No wonder the number of requirements to work offshore are increasing every year.

Not too long ago, our offshore medical lasted longer according to your age. Now it’s every 2 Years, but who cares, it’s less than a days pay.

Once upon a time, Boiset was enough to work offshore, now you also need Mist every year, who cares, it’s less than a days wage.

GWO, who cares it’s only a few days pay!

MTCS cert renewal, no problem, less than a days pay!

I guess the first half of the trip goes to the taxman, the next week goes for whatever you want call the forementuined requisits, and if we’re lucky we get to keep the rest.

The days of high pay, travel and adventure are long gone.

[Lenny]

Jaso you are right in house assessment is the best way however most companies relay it onto an external verifier in our case MTCS.
I do disagree that we are paying for luxury of doing our jobs lets face it it works out as less than a days pay for a cert renewal.
Forklift drivers the construction industry has many renewal certificates, riggers on the deck need to renew certs every few years. We are not alone in needing to keep competence certification in date.

I think as well companies like to keep competence certificate issuing external as it stops any question of them just printing certificates off for their staff.

WOW ROVSUP123,

I can’t believe you just said this!

I do disagree that we are paying for luxury of doing our jobs lets face it it works out as less than a days pay for a cert renewal.

That’s the problem! Just pay the money, even though you’re getting nothing, as long as you get on the job.

No wonder the number of requirements to work offshore are increasing every year.

Not too long ago, our offshore medical lasted longer according to your age. Now it’s every 2 Years, but who cares, it’s less than a days pay.

Once upon a time, Boiset was enough to work offshore, now you also need Mist every year, who cares, it’s less than a days wage.

GWO, who cares it’s only a few days pay!

MTCS cert renewal, no problem, less than a days pay!

I guess the first half of the trip goes to the taxman, the next week goes for whatever you want call the forementuined requisits, and if we’re lucky we get to keep the rest.

The days of high pay, travel and adventure are long gone.

Pardon the typos, I’m a bit disgruntled!

[Lenny]

WOW ROVSUP123,

I can’t believe you just said this!

I do disagree that we are paying for luxury of doing our jobs lets face it it works out as less than a days pay for a cert renewal.

That’s the problem! Just pay the money, even though you’re getting nothing, as long as you get on the job.

No wonder the number of requirements to work offshore are increasing every year.

Not too long ago, our offshore medical lasted longer according to your age. Now it’s every 2 Years, but who cares, it’s less than a days pay.

Once upon a time, Boiset was enough to work offshore, now you also need Mist every year, who cares, it’s less than a days wage.

GWO, who cares it’s only a few days pay!

MTCS cert renewal, no problem, less than a days pay!

I guess the first half of the trip goes to the taxman, the next week goes for whatever you want call the forementuined requisits, and if we’re lucky we get to keep the rest.

The days of high pay, travel and adventure are long gone.
Pardon the typos, I’m a bit disgruntled! Profile PM

[James MacDonald]

So what is the alternative?

No body wants to pay this money out and yes there are more requirements to get offshore. As I said in my original post, in the bits you skipped over, is that we are not the only industry who have to renew certification to work.

As I understand it the medical duration was challenged a few years back as it age discriminated. Therefore everyone had the medical reduced to the two year period.

Survivals are now shorter than ever and the cost has not really changed significantly in 20 years which kind of reflects that a bit.

We are privileged enough to work in a an industry that pays very well with excellent time off; when youre at work your food is cooked, bed made, washing done for you (most offshore installations not all).
Quite often there is free internet, gym and phones.

If my agent or employer requires that I have a piece of paper to work then I will get it. If you dont want to then that is up to you.

For years guys on sites like this have whined on about lack of standards. Now there is a bit of a movement in that direction there are complaints about having to pay to prove you are at that standard. We can not have it both ways. The system is not perfect we work in remote locations all over the world so assessment is not as straight forward as in some other industries where external assessors can come and physically see you at work.
If you are not happy with what is happening in your current experience with regard to companies providing external verification of evidence then report them to IMCA or the agent/company you work for.
Ranting on a web page like this may get a few views from guys with similar opinions to yourself but it is not in reality going to achieve anything.

I hold a MTCS Superintendant certificate and also a MTCS Assessors certificate. I completed the assessors certificate to ensure that I was in the best position to support any team members I had offshore who were working toward completion of their competence certification.

IMCA also seem keener to develop the competence system with the new e-portfolios so it really seems like this is the future whether you agree with it or not.
As for all the other cost survival, medical, GWO etc I think you exaggerate the costs of the pre-requisite certification. In reality it works out at roughly 1100 per year (If you need GWO) based on the average of 180 days that equates to about 6 pounds a day for each of the 180 days you work.
If for example you earned 370 per day and paid UK tax your net income would still be circa 45000 for 6 months work. (sorry cant find the pound key on this keyboard).

I still think that the reality of the situation as much as we dont like paying for things, our money and lives are really not that bad.

[Lenny]

What is the alternative?

To answer that, let me ensure that we are on the same page. My complaint is regarding MTCS and other companies that provide competency certs with no actual training.

Like many others, I found myself in a situation in which a client requested a supervisor certificate. Though I had been working as Rov Supv. for over 10 years at the time, I didnt have a cert. On the other hand, a junior supervisor had a MTCS certificate and if I didnt get one, I would be on the next job as a tech. The company informed me that they would help me obtain a cert. via MTCS, through a grandfather clause, which seemed fair enough, after all I had been a Supv. for over ten years and didnt have a problem demonstrating that. So the process began, signatures, copy of entire log book, evidence and more evidence and in the end even some essay questions, and of course lets not forget the payment.

So far so good, I had no problem with any of that. The problem came later, once the cert expired! Why would my cert expire? Anyway, at the time, all you had to do was pay the money and they sent you a new cert, which is where the problem starts. If I dont need to do anything to get a new cert except pay money, than what is the point?

Now the situatition is even worse. Cert expired again, but not only do you have to pay the money, and considerably more, but you have to send all the evidence and again! So not only is it expensive but it is an exhaustive waste of time.

Once you have obtained a qualification and have continued to work in that capacity, then there is not need to keep proving that you can do your job. Thats normal, just like you dont keep renewing you diploma, or degree.

Back to your question, what is the alternative?

MTCS certifications should not expire. Simple

We can go on and on about it, but once you have attained a certain level, then you dont fall back. If you fly your ROV through the bow thruster, youll still be a Supervisor, most likely an unemployable one and MTCS cant help you.

Call it what you want, ranting, whining or whatever, but if you want to say nothing and ignore the problem, then you can be that type of person. But if you are who you say you are, even though I think you work for MTCS, then we are in the same boat.

Same with the MIST course, I remember doing that online, read the material answer the questions until you get enough correct to pass, and magically you have a certificate. I could have let my son do it.

[jaso]

ROVSUP123 and bazinga
whats all this about ranting ? its not ranting its a discussion and a relevant one.
So ROVSUP123 you did the assessors course does that have to be renewed every 3 yrs with you doing the whole exam again ? im just curious coz by what you are saying you should have to do that. and your superintendent Cert, your happy with a full exam and payment for it every 3 yrs. Is this correct ?
You sound like an intelligent guy who has been working in the industry along time but you must be re-assesed , right.

Fort william Certs do not expire, they no longer are operating but they do not expire.
So your saying that Fort william is or was not a good training place because they believed that once you pass an exam thats it.
A BOSIET can be a FOET if your working and dont let it expire.
Should MTSC not have a similar program where, an up to date which theirs is not, is used for re-assessment . Not doing the whole thing again, i mean come on. Resitting and exam to get your expiring Cert updated with exactly the same questions you were asked 6yrs ago.??!!!
Thats not right its old its not relevant anymore, our jobs have changed so much in 6yrs but the exam and assessment has not and the cost has rocketed.

That is just not correct in anyway.
I do not have a problem with assessment but long distance exams with no one watching you. Part of my job is to teach, asses, organise, co-ordinate and run my crew and i should be monitored or assessed in person doing so and my crew or team should be asked what they think of my command. MTSC doesnt do any of that, its not a proper assessment and not current.

i would be very interested in what you both have to say ROVSUP123 and Bazinga.

thank you, you can call me Al

[James MacDonald]

Fort William is out of business now. As I understand it they were a good training school but obviously not run by business minded people. The course cost was ridiculous compared to alternatives. I think that may be getting off point a little bit.

As I understand it even if your certificate has expired if you are re-certifying at the same level as the certificate you previously held then you can just do an ICA which can be completed in a shift or two.
The assessor course is a lifetime cert. I am not sure why as I would have expected it to need updating should any big legislation items change such as the recent EU data handling rules which have just came into force.

The superintendent cert is the same three year re-assessment but you do not have to complete the full certification pack again just prove you have been at that level and basically complete the ICA paperwork.

My problem with the superintendent re-certification is who above the senior ROV guy onboard a vessel is competent to say if they are doing the job correctly or not. Most of the client reps are surveyors on the jobs I am involved with and in with the greatest respect to them they do not really know exactly what goes on with the ROV.

I do fully agree with your point on how the ROV systems have developed yet the questions have not. However it is not MTCS that set the standards it is IMCA so that is where change needs to start. MTCS only train to the standards set by IMCA we all need to be aware of that. For the guys who work for companies with IMCA membership push your concerns up through to your ROV managers and above and get them to raise the issues at the right level. As I bluntly put it we can discuss it till we are blue in face on this forum but nothing will really change.

My one concern with regard to your point of your crew giving feedback on you is that there could be re-percussions for giving negative feedback to the office about your boss on later rotations if the supervisor is that way inclined. Also was anonymous it would be easy for a subordinate who is after your job to give crap feedback on your to try and further themselves.

[Author]

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