First amendable drafts ROV Association

[James McLauchlan]

…..I suggest that the idea of an International Remote Operated Vehicle Contractors Association (IROVCA) is a good one. But let it start fairly clean in a simple format and build from there……

…….If the IROVCA (name used as an example) were to be started with the correct frame work in place, Registered, bank account, contact address, phone,email, website for it to function as an association in these modern times, the rest can be tacked on in ‘modules’ as things progress.
Get that in place and things can move on.. keep discussing the whole deal.. regulations, rules, safety flashes, grades, experience, pay rates etc. before IROVCA even exists and it’ll go no where……

Well that’s two of us thinking roughly along the same lines. Just need a few hundred more to jump in and and it could actually progress into something tangible.

Give me a few minutes and I’ll add a new board Initially I’ll call it… I-ROV-A (the name can be changed later if need be).

[James McLauchlan]

Give me a few minutes and I’ll add a new board Initially I’ll call it… I-ROV-A (the name can be changed later if need be).

Done!

[Scott Beveridge]

Jim,

Really good point – apprenticeships! Wish every country had them as a rule during secondary school.

[thomas]

james this is really appreciated.

Scotbeve….
Thankyou for your input and I agree.

Dont know if companies will go for it but we will get nowhere if we dont try.

[timebandit]

I dont know many supervisors with any recognised management training or qualifications, me included. Does that exempt me from joining ? I have supervised or more accurately led by example because that is all I know.

I think it would be a good idea to train supervisors in the handling of crew in the offshore environment because from my experience some are actually unmanageable. It would make my job easier if there was a simple fix to the non trained managers in a supervisor position scenario.

The only guys that come to my mind with any management training are ex forces and they tend to lead in a military style which sometimes works but more often than not it just winds people up.

From my experience the best leaders I have worked with are those that have the best technical knowledge and know how to express that information to the rest of the team in a calm and confident fashion.
So to the point ,is there a grandfather clause ? if not I feel you are looking at a limited interest in membership…

[thomas]

Time bandit….
Thankyou for your input.
Im glad you think some management experience is a good point.What is an ROV supervisor if he is not a manager?

Yes up to now its a point never adressed before but for me as a professional person I think managers should have some training in man management.

You know when I was a young buck managers managed by the boot system.ie get it done or you get this size 12 up your a.. .

Those days are gone my friend, long time ago ,I really dont think its asking very much that managers of an association should ,if they want to manage, get a little bit of management training because someone could be the best ,most knowledgable guy on the planet, but couldnt manage his own finances.

I foresee a professional body not a made up one.

Please dont worry Im sure you will continue to manage but please if you want to manage get a little training and then maybe you will learn how to manage the unmanagable teams.

If Im asking too much that managers should know a bit about man management then we would not be very professional.

[James McLauchlan]

To add to comments from timebandit

With reference on whom may be eligible to join at whatever level. Again, I feel this might be going too deep too quickly. By all means allow people to join and they may state a grade level on the application form but that, at this stage, would not be proof of competence at that level.
I do not have an ROV log book nor could I really prove how many hours I may have logged in the years that have passed. I once had a IMCA supervisors ticket hat expired years ago. Why it was designed to expire beat me! I have nice CV though, and a few letters of reference from previous employers.
I only mention this because as timebandit hinted… there are many in this game that have been in for years that were never required to have a log book (they didn’t exist) and would therefore have great difficulty in proving anything. I would suggest a Grandfather route be considered so that Grandfathers can join at what ever level they have been working at for years as their CV will show. Those that have log books with signed off hours etc. can submit that as evidence also. You’d probably have a hard job getting an ROV Vessel Ops supervisor or a an Project Manager to come up with a log book!

At the outset….
On the matter of whom is eligible to join.. Initially I would suggest people be allowed to join as nothing more than a member of the association.

Where people may fit in, grade wise, can be handled at a later date as a separate admin task once the need arises and the association has gathered steam by way of membership and viability.
To the best of my recollection the IMCA were around way before ROV grades were suggested and yet ROV’s had already been around for years.. so an association does not need a grading system in place to establish itself.

I say establish the association, get the membership up, and then work on the fine tuning using the funds generated from membership fees. If initially being a member of the association does not suggest competence at the outset I see that as no real barrier for the early days.

For those that might counteract the above by asking.. so what’s the point in joining? There will be a point eventually,… but like all things you need to start somewhere.

[DJansen]

Wow what a blast from the past.. takes me back to the start of the ‘divers association’ at the Mitre Hotel in Singas ..

That aside an association of ROV guys actually run by ROV guys would be a good thing.

Only probs I see so far are as James has already stated.. there are alot of us old types that either never had a log book or had several which nobody ever asked for so got binned over time.. So you’ll need a grandfather clause or most of the industries senior guys won’t be eligible.. And lets face it what ROV guy who’s been doing this for years is gonna want to take a test or be graded ( by some office jockey) before he can join ? You wonder why all the IMCA nonsense doesn’t fly ?

Next would be the amount of piloting hours you have listed to be a Supv. Yes I understand the 500 you show is a minimum.. But I figure that to be an all round Superivisor with time spent on a variety of systems and vessels you’ll have been in the industry for 5-6 years.. I’d like to hope the guy would have gained more than 500 hours by then.. So you’ll need to find another way of quantifying the applicants experience and ability. Why ? well because once again very few of the older guys have any logs or any way of proving where they have been apart from their CV and lots of good stories.

Lastly.. this has also been touched upon.. There are countless dozens of very good ROV people with no quals, no tech background and basically bugger all anything.. That’s why they got a job offshore.
Many many of these hands are self taught and have gained their knowledge the hard way.. In my 20+ years I’m still waiting for a company to send me on a management course, or any course for that matter… Once again you’ll end up excluding the very guys you want to join if you make the whole association membership thing based purely on formal education.

Yes I agree that there needs to be an entry standard for trainees.. But just having a HND doesn’t make a bloke a perfect candidate for our industry.. from my experience ‘college types’ are often more trouble than they are worth 🙄 You’ll be in danger of disuading the very type of guy our game has alway thrived on.. The simple fact that ROVing needs such diverse, weird and independent people is exactly what has prevented any of the schools from turning out much in the way of viable candidates.. The type of guy the ROv industry often needs the most is exactly the type of fella who’d never go to a ROV ‘school’

all that being by and by.. Good on ya for giving it a go.. Be nice to see a few more of the lookey loo lurking types bothering to comment. Good to see KreuzOps putting in his two penny’th as well..

[thomas]

Guys ..
Once again thankyou for your imputs.Its good to see interest forming here.

With regards to grandfather clauses,of course this will happen for these are the very people who are the hub of our industry.

Things are evolving day by day and yes maybe I will throw in something now and again that not everyone agrees with,but from the outset I have been upfront in saying ,this is not my association I am merely stimulating an industry that I am part of into doing something about it.

The postings I made the other day re entry levels were not fixed in stone or necessarily to be included at all,but you have got to see that it is promoting more thought and inputs.If we continue as we are at present I am starting to believe that this can come together.

As regards a bit of management training for supervisors.

I am not advocating that the stalwarts of our industry run out and get some management training but I would say that in future as people progress that they should have that as part of their package.

Im sure you have heard of some guys who become PT one minute then 1 or 2 years later they are supervisors who spend their time emailing older hands asking what to do when the sh.. hits the fan.

I would like to think that it would be impossible for anyone in our association getting to supv level in that time and this is 2010.Those people in the future will benefit from a bit of training geared to what we do.
When all is said and done we are talking of apprenticeships of around two years ,so if thats the case, how can someone go from trainee or apprentice to gaffer in such a short time?If we are going to kick this off ,yes the older guys will be a big part of it ,but that doesnt mean to say that a young buck with 2 or 3 years in the job should suddenly become a grandfather.We will have to look closely in that senario.

Im thinking I might be seeing a glimmer of light along that tunnel already.Keep it coming guys and maybe some of you onlookers will feel ready to throw it in soon.

[Andy Shiers]

Hmmmmm , But surely what you are proposing is an association of professionals to a standard ? Therefore the people in it should not be Trainees at all !
The trainees should get their experience from the ROV Company that employs them. This means that they need to have the years experience in order to go moving around ! If they do not have membership they do not obviously have the experience which in turn safeguards our day rate does it not and therefor stops the undercutting which is happening at the moment. Or else you are just trying to be another school !

[thomas]

Lostboy.
Thankyou for your input.
You make a valid point in what you say and I understand your thoughts on a bit of protectionism for our day rate.

This association,I think, should reflect being a professional body of people who work in the ROV industry ,and, have acheived a certain standard in our industry.

If companies wish to bring trainees into our domain,then surely we must be able to accomodate such trainees within our standard ,as opposed to the standard we have now,ie sons straight from secondary school brought in by dads ,cousins ,next door nieghbours etc who come and be part of an operational team with absolutely zero qualifications.

We as an association ,at the stage we are at, or not at, must consider the future personell in our industry, and for that reason I have tried to set out some fair rules to become classified as a bone fide trainee available to start work in our industry.

That is not to say we will be responsable for his or her training we are merely saying we have looked at this person and in our opinion this person has sufficient to work in our industry as a trainee.

I think, but maybe Im wrong,that you are refering to the comments made about apprenticeships.

I would love to see trainees be in excess of an operational team, and I envisage one of our tasks, is to bring that about.Maybe ,just maybe companies, if they are willing to invest in the industries future ,would rather have as a trainee,someone ,who has been screened by our professional body, as being suitable for a trainees position, other than joe bloggs next door, then,hopfully ,when a trainee goes onboard as an extra and the client sees he is an IROVA trainee member we might increase our credibility a bit as he will know that to gain our membership he has been screened as suitable.

I hope this has explained my thinking,I do not invisage becoming a training school,but if members in the future demand we look at it ,then we must ,because if nothing else ,I would like to see this association run as a consensus.

If you still have concerns on this point please do not hesitate to fire in some more input and hopefully one or two more will join in and thrash it out until we are all happy.

[Andy Shiers]

Yes I understand what you are trying to do but it is by definition of the word "professional body" or professional person.
One stating that the person in that body is of a professional standard which can be recognised in the industry , that has the qualifications to be called "professional" or "experienced" ( Pilot /tech – The other words ……. Supervisor or Superintendant meaning they have Ex amount of years in the Industry in that capacity and by rights should be experienced in both Flying and Technical abilities anyway 😯 ) , this goes hand in glove with a rate for that person or rates plural. To invite trainees into the organisation is to either be classed along the lines of a School or a Union of sorts which I thought you were intending on steering away from !…….. For now.
What ever you do the IMCA "Guidelines" to which most Oil companies or Subcontractors subscribe to will always be there and you will be compared by them.
In other words a trainee without experience cannot abuse the new forming body or a stepping stone to drop his rate and push some experienced person off the job because he wants a rate or The going rate we are all trying to achieve, meaning bypassing what is commonly known as an apprenticeship. NO SHORT CUTS , Learn the correct way and get a salary job with a ROV Company. If they cannot , then there is no job available, Or the ROV company feels that the person is not right for this type of work or does not have the correct qualifications. They can then choose a different vocation in life and stems the amount of wannabes wanting to get into the market and flooding it !
Does that not make sense ?
Oh and don’t forget lawyers well versed in Maritime law and offshore practices for guidence in matters of our Industry. Or Helpline so to speak .

[luckyjim37]

How about initially using the IMCA system as a guidline of anyone whether indate or not the highest IMCA cert held should be there level. If no cert held then a system of assessing experience and work history needs to be in place to assess level.

New comers into the industry would need to start and follow the new standards. This way as the old school retire/die/forget where they are, and move on in a few years time it will leave only personnel who have followed the standard from scratch in the organisation.

[thomas]

Lostboy,
Thankyou for your further imput on this point.
I have read your post two or three times but you must excuse me as I have been busy doing other things and need to think before responding.

Lucky Jim,
Thankyou for your imput,Im sorry but again I must ask you to wait until tomorrow following some sleep then I will look, try to understand and respond to your input.

[Anonymous]

Don’t wanna come across as negative or anything , but this all seems like hot air & bumping of gums! Although I think Justalot has good intentions I see no teeth to this whatsoever.

No doubt I will be lambasted & accused of being a fence sitter ( Just like I refussed to be conned by the RMT BS ) which many fell for in here , I never the less wish you luck with your ambitions.

Being a full member of the IEE I see no benefit to joining said group 😯

[Author]

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