Fort William

[Ray Shields]

Paul,

many thanks for posting the figures. Any mis-information on the forum, I’m sure we would all like if you corrected or gave your comments on it.

However, it does beg one question – of the 51 students who attended your course, how many would have got jobs in ROV whether they attended the course or not? Unfortunately, we are never going to know. Fugro employed one gentleman who had done your course – and them sent him back to FW to do the course a second time. So, they didn’t take your course into account on his employment? One gentleman who did your course last year did our in-house course at the beginning of the year and said at the end of it he had learned a lot more than he had at FW.

Some of us have been disappointed with the quality of some of the trainees arriving offshore over the last few years. Some people with inappropriate backgrounds, some appear to have not been told that they are still considered Trainees and not fully qualified Pilots. And then there’s ones who think they are ONLY there to fly…! Some of their skills in certain areas also do not seem to be too well covered:- hydraulics, fibre optics, tooling and workclass vehicles. You say you have two workclass vehicles, hasn’t one (a Scorpio) only just been donated by Fugro, is the other one the old one that sat outside of the tank? Neither are used for flying experience in the water are they? The Falcons are definately good training for eyeball pilots.

If you could maybe explain to the forum how TUC looks at the background and qualifications of people who apply and what the minimum qualifications people need for you to accept them on the course I think it would help dispel the myth of any taxi driver or plumber can get onto the course.

If you read through my posts, I have never said that training schools are a waste of money full stop. They have their place in peoples career development. For the right person with the right background, they can help. As you know, you have a lot of other schools out there, all trying to do the same thing. Some are worse than others, unfortunately for you the reputation of ALL schools suffer from being tarred with the same brush.

I have spent a lot of my own personal time on here as well as at work over the last year helping train people, helping them with their CVs, giving advice etc. I do it because I enjoy doing it. I do remember when I started in ROVs and I do know what information I would have liked to have had then.

I understand how you may feel some of these comments are aimed plainly at yourself, if people question the training then they are by association saying YOU are not training them properly. I note your reference to "my graduates", like they are your children 🙂 I know that you are like me and do the job because you enjoy giving the training. But you have to realise TUC are a business they make money out of training people. because – ultimately – you are there to make money.

Its rather how oil companys keep banging on about how their primary aim is safety – we all know its to make money!

[PaulB]

Ray,

I would be posting on this site more often, but time and tide….

As most students at The Underwater Centre (Fort William) (TUC) know, we teach all day and I am there most evenings working with students on CVs and on a one-to-one basis helping them when possible. I also have a large network of ex-students with whom I keep in regular contact – they are all on my mailing list and I send details of any jobs that I hear about direct to them (two this week). I also co-ordinate any incomming enquiries from ROV employers, agencies and individuals looking for recently qualified graduates (remember, my list of ex-students goes back several years now, and many are climbing to the top of the tree).
I cannot say how many of those 51 would have got work anyway, but please remember the waiting list for our courses at that time was about 1 year! If such students had to wait a year to get on our course, surely if they would have succeeded in getting work earlier, they would have cancelled their course! I now have three extra instructors working under me and our capacity is about 200 students per year. That includes 88 Fugro candidates in 2009. The waiting list is currently about 6 months.

You talk about the quality of candidates. I can say that the vast majority of my students have been excellent – a pleasure to teach. They have been keen to learn, and perhaps most importantly, they have the right attitude! They have not been knocked back by reading the threads on this website (and I do refer them to it). They know they have to work hard to get their first job, and know that when they leave us, they still have a lot to learn (unlike suggestions made here to the contrary).
I find that like in any work situation, there are better and worse candidates. I can name several excellent candidates who have rapidly excelled in the ROV business through their technical skills and knowledge who, by the way, did not fit the rigid criteria of what should make a good ROV Pilot/Tech. In the same way, we get many candidates who fit the IMCA quidelines but one or two just don’t have the attitude, team spirit, or whatever.

Please remember, we train students, we don’t employ them! If companies choose to employ someone who doesn’t fit the IMCA guidelines that you refer to, surely, the question should be put to the employers. Instead, we find employers who are happy to take our graduates, usually for a three or four week contract and see what they are like. A far better way of assessing someone’s skills, competence and attitude than what is said on a CV. I have a number of ROV employers who have commented about being impressed with our graduates and they keep asking for more.

Please also remember, we do not just train people for the Oil & Gas industry, about 10 – 15% of students go to work in other fields, eg, scientific research, civil, military, archeology and marine science our courses are not exclusive. Not everyone wants to work on a ship or rig you know! We have companies sending students to us for training (like Fugro, SubSea7 and SonSub). For these candidates, we have no control over who they send, but I am sure they have their own selection criteria. Furthermore, we provide SVQs as part of our courses and the Scottish Qualifications Authority are quite clear in us applying a non-discrimination policy towards candidates.

By the time students are signed up to our courses, they have looked long and hard into what is for most of them the biggest career move in their life. It is patronising to think that they do this on a whim, most that I meet have spent months or even years deliberating and reseaching before joining us. The vast majority have read the IMCA website, ROVworld and many others. Once they are working, most say that they wish they had decided sooner!

I know that there were some old threads on this site with negative comments about TUC but I have been in charge now for the last four and-a-half years and I honestly believe we give the best training possible in the time allowed. I don’t see any threads with first-hand comments critising me, on the contrary, I have seen several threads saying quite the opposite. What I do see is a vocal minority who generalise on all training schools (many of whom have no first-hand knowledge) and some who refer to TUC with vague innuendo or just plain inaccuracies that they heard 7 or 8 years ago. (Oh, yes we do have underwater current on our site – it is a tidal loch with a 4.6m tide!!!)

In a typical class of 8, I find that about 2 or 3 students have come to us on personal recommendations from ex-students, family, friends, work collegues and (yes!) employers. Yes, I do see the students as my children (though some are older than me!) That’s because I love this work – with a passion. If I was in it just to make money, believe me, I would be offshore all the time, instead, I next plan to go offshore for 3-4 weeks over Christmas/New Year.

I have no intention of spending another whole day on this website reading and answering threads but I will be checking and correcting any accidental errors on the part of contributors 8)

Ray, I don’t know how you manage to do so many posts. (621 since the counter was reset) I have done 4 and it has taken most of this rainy Saturday. I wish I had the time – no, I don’t – I would rather spend my time looking after and training my students – or diving!

Paul Bury
Head of ROV Training & Operations
The Underwater Centre (Fort William)

[Cabledog]

Well said Paul and a pleasure to read your posts. Before anyone else asks I did not do a course at Fort Bill 😀

Be good
Dog

[Dunc]

Sorry folks but am a rookie trying to get in the field, so far be it for me to make any input to this………but hey am gona lol. I have looked into the majority of courses within the UK with regards to entering this field, and a bloody mine field it is!!!

We as in the newbies have to take things on face value. We rely on sites such as this and others to gather our information. It is hard when there is a lot od snide bitchin goin on.

As for FW, i have a friend who within the past year went through the course, highly rated it and is now on a ship somewhere out by Egypt. I wont put his name purely to protect the innocent, but for him FW worked.

However it comes at a cost, a bloody high one in comparison to other training facilities. Now i know these machines are expensive to run blah blah, but the basic fact remains…people will go to what they can afford.

I put up a post about MTCS, and got some good feedback (Cheers Ray). Overall if negatives have to made about a course then fine, but maybe in a corner like this we should look at putting more than that and put something else constructive on. That way the rookie can weigh up the pros and cons (from what i’ve seen on this site, thats about 50/50).

Anyway i’ll retire from the soap box and let someone else on lol
Catch ye all. 😀

[Ray Shields]

Ray, I don’t know how you manage to do so many posts. (621 since the counter was reset) I have done 4 and it has taken most of this rainy Saturday. I wish I had the time – no, I don’t – I would rather spend my time looking after and training my students – or diving!

Mainly because Im used to being on t’Internet a lot and its amazing how fast you can type with 2 fingers n a thumb! I also do not have anything to do of an evening, its this or shoot bad guys on Call of Duty 4 🙂 Also, a post can consist of one or two lines, as opposed to epics like these!

I also have Internet access offshore so can still access the site there.

I feel that this site can contribute a lot to both new and existing offshore people. Yes, theres a lot of bitching because it is in the main and anonymous posting site, a lot of the personnel posting on here are current offshore workers. The industry moves along very quickly and unfortunately offshore nowadays does include a hell of a lot of cliques, bitching, backstabbing and bullshit (some things never change!), but because of the skills shortage over the last few years, people seem to be getting fast tracked into positions that they are not ready for.

I still consider ANY induction course (I do not consider you can be trained sufficiently in 3-5 weeks) to be just that – an introduction, enough to give you a flavour and hopefully not kill yourself or any fellow team mates. You have said it twice "I honestly believe we give the best training possible in the time allowed." I have no doubt that you do, but the "time allowed" is enough for an induction only, not a fully competent PT which they think they are, people get told they are now a Pilot Tech 2 because they have ticked the boxes that IMCA say where in reality they are still a Trainee.

I for one believe the IMCA guidelines fall way short of what is required to be competent offshore in todays much more sophisticated equipment. We have come a long way since Scorpios and the like.

My own personal view is also that people need to work on having sufficient techical qualifications and techical experience prior to working on ROVs. ROV companys want to teach techincal people how to operate and maintain their equipment, they do not want to teach people to be technicians (note I consider 99% of ROV people – including myself – to be a technician and not an engineer).

I have absolutely no doubt in your personal commitment to wanting the best for all of the students you teach in FW, and as you said, there have been many positive comments on here. But TUC as a company is a business and is there to make money, and the thought is always there that they will do it in the manner that will make them the most profit. Saying that, I would always be happy to give any assistance I could in helping you in any way I can to improve or assist in the training any way I can. You are lucky you are being paid to do a job you enjoy doing, unfortunately not eveyone is in that happy position.

Luckily at the moment, I am 😀

I realise how busy you are, good to hear you have managed to recruit more trainers. But any untruths that are mentioned on this site that can be corrected will always be welcome on here, even if its only an occasional visit 🙂

[Rookie]

Hi all,

I wouldn’t have believed it unless I had seen it in black and white – All the rumours about "experienced" ROV guys slagging off and being negative toward people trying to break into the industry ( are they worried about something?)

Ginja Ninja is right – Fort William is a valuable stepping stone towards the ROV industry, yes it could possibly considered pricey however what you get in return is a solid grounding in ROV operations – not just piloting as someone menioned, any monkey can do that, but the full gambit from electronics fundamentals through to working with difficult people who perhaps have a chip on each shoulder. What other options do keen, motivated guys have?

Everyone’s aware there is a massive skills shortage across the board and lets be grown up about this the only way to negate "unsafe practice" is for the more experienced to get off their soap boxes and actively encourage, support and mentor the new guys coming through.

[J Deans]

…not just piloting as someone menioned, any monkey can do that…
… the more experienced to get off their soap boxes and actively encourage, support and mentor the new guys coming through.

Well, for a start, any monkey CANNOT fly, we have all seen many a monkey and muppet offshore who as soon as he loses site of the seabed or anything solid has no ideas where he is and is unable to continue.

Trainees who arrive offshore with the right attitude will always get on.

Those who turn up and sit and play games or look at porn on their laptop instead of reading manuals, doing all the work that needs to be done (yes, that includes shitty cleaning up jobs), and have this mentality that you MUST show me what to do, will not go far.

And there are more and more of these appearing offshore nowadays, due to the skills shortage we are now seeing people who do not have the skills. Which includes the most simple tasks such as how to put a bit in the chuck of a drill. Electronic people 10 years ago regularly used to use an oscilloscope and change out components on a board. Nowadays people just want to change a whole unit and send it back ashore. They can’t even splice a three wire light cable!

Many can talk the talk but not walk the walk – its not about chips on shoulders or resenting young whippersnappers taking our jobs, respect is earned not a given. Be prepared to learn and do the job and there will be no problems. This forum is anonymous, work places aren’t. People post messages on here to wind people up. If this forum upsets you then you wont survive 6 week trips offshore stuck with a small group of people.

[Rookie]

Dino,

I take on board and agree with most of what you are saying.

Attitude is key and I’m sure you’ll agree that swings both ways, there’s no point in a green hand tipping his forlock whilst carrying out the basic jobs if his senior is going to roll his eyes and tut if the lad dares ask a pertinent question.

"Monkeys can fly?" not my quote but quite apt – if the cap fits!

As for winding me up – quite the contrary – just trying to put the warped record straight! Looks like something has upset you though?

Cheers

[J Deans]

Dino,

I take on board and agree with most of what you are saying.

Attitude is key and I’m sure you’ll agree that swings both ways, there’s no point in a green hand tipping his forlock whilst carrying out the basic jobs if his senior is going to roll his eyes and tut if the lad dares ask a pertinent question.

"Monkeys can fly?" not my quote but quite apt – if the cap fits!

As for winding me up – quite the contrary – just trying to put the warped record straight! Looks like something has upset you though?

Cheers

It WAS your quote "not just piloting as someone menioned, any monkey can do that".

If trainees ask pertinent questions thats great – but most of them dont ask or even show much enthusiasm in learning. I’m upset at continually being sent trainees who dont bother to learn, cannot do the simplest of basic tasks, dont clean up behind themselves, thinking life owes them a living and then complain that they have been doing this 6 months now and they should be getting paid as a Sub Engineer.

[Rookie]

Dino,

Take your time, relax and read it again – I was quoting someones quote!
Not a too difficult concept top grasp I’m sure you’ll agree.

[Ray Shields]

Ginja Ninja is right – Fort William is a valuable stepping stone towards the ROV industry, yes it could possibly considered pricey however what you get in return is a solid grounding in ROV operations – not just piloting as someone menioned, any monkey can do that, but the full gambit from electronics fundamentals through to working with difficult people who perhaps have a chip on each shoulder. What other options do keen, motivated guys have?

Actually, I read it the same as Dino. It looks like you quoted someone else saying "not just piloting as someone menioned," to which, because of the comma you added, you appeared to say "any monkey can do that".

You see how easy it is to mean one thing and write another. You also know Im sure telling someone to relax and saying its not a difficult concept to grasp is assured to have the opposite affect 😀

[thinsub]

I feel there is definitely a lowering of standards in offshore personnel in the ROV game and I also feel there are several reasons for this.
1. The training schools and some companies are taking on unsuitable candidates for the job giving them some sort of cert and telling them they are good enough. (This sort of thing has always gone on but seems to have increased significantly with the increase in demand for personnel).
2. The advent of the internet offshore seems to advert a lot of trainees from sticking their noses into manuals and learning a little about the job.
3. Jobs are getting more and more ROV tooling integration therefore requires better qualified personnel.
4. There are a lot of guys in the industry who are getting promoted into positions because they have been there a long time rather than on merit. (Some guys should be just kept at certain ranks).

The training schools have got to stop taking the cash off these guys that have no technical background; it is not clever and making life a lot harder for the teams offshore. A few weeks in a training school is in no way going to prepare you technically for the industry. I understand that most of these guys are getting jobs but that is the desperation in the industry right now. If guys are that keen to get into the industry they should get the necessary skills first.

Thinsub

[SGB]

The training schools have got to stop taking the cash off these guys that have no technical background; it is not clever and making life a lot harder for the teams offshore. A few weeks in a training school is in no way going to prepare you technically for the industry. I understand that most of these guys are getting jobs but that is the desperation in the industry right now. If guys are that keen to get into the industry they should get the necessary skills first.

How very true.

It all boils down to the opportunity of certain companies that can provide training under a smoke screen of being IMCA recognised and therefore an industry approved standard. The courses are laid down to IMCA guidelines only, no IMCA approved certificate is issued but candidates leave happy (10 k out of pocket) believing they have the entry level quailification that companies require for trainees. A certain company in in Cumbria used the same approach in the early ninties.

Companies need to get together with service providers and more importantly IMCA and the Engineering Council to make provide a course that has more substance and recognisation. This hopefully would stop the assumed notion that just by attending this course they become a pilot technician overnight.
I acknowledge that certain people that have attended such courses have obtained employment and I wish you all well. But could this be attrubuted to the course or the sheer persisitance of the individual?

[turtle]

As the former Training Director of a private ROV training center, I wrestled with management on the approach to recruitment
of candidates. The battle was, in short, an approach of advertising in technical type magazines to attract the technically interested versus advertising in sports scuba mags for "travel-high-pay-adventure" types. Profit motive won, of course, and we soon had classes filled for the next year with a mix of very technically qualified applicants and some who were dyslexic, blind-in-one-eye/couldn’t-see-out-of-the-other. As long as they could function well enough to write a check, entry qualifications were met.

Many years later, after having run across (and in a few cases worked under) some of my ex grads I believe there is no hard and fast rule about who will be successful in this business. The typical successful ROV guy has skills way beyond demonstrated technical knowledge.

My view of a proper ROV training course is this : it is simply prep for that first entry level job. Teach the candidate how to use basic test equipment, all the parts of an ROV, the normal functions of all team members, how to use duct tape and tie wraps, how to operate recording equipment and keep records. Make him useful for his first day on the job, let him go from there. He can take a mail order course in electronics or hydraulics and will get plenty of tutoring from crew mates if he shows he is keen to learn. Give him enough hours in the training course on a piece of gear that swims around a tank so he has a basic idea of what the pilot is doing.

No training course produces a fully qualified Pilot/Technician. You get one of these with a couple years experience in the field, nothing less. The introductory training course can only open that first door. The guy who arrives with a solid background in electrical/electronic/mechanical/hydraulic hands on experience has a tremendous headstart, but do not disclude the lorry driver/pizza delivery guy. I’ll take a gungho former convenience store clerk who is first to grab a broom or a wrench over the ex Tech Dept Manager who has a resume with plenty of initials after his name but is not interested in getting his hands dirty.

Training centers are a "for profit" venture. It is in their best interest to qualify for entry as broad a group as possible. The hiring companies benefit from the fact that applicants have paid for their own training, and to a degree, weeded themselves out. If they’ve been through the course they have a much better expectation of life in the business than a guy hired solely for his qualifications on a resume. And the pizza delivery guy/ROV training course grad will go off shore for a whole heck of a lot less on a day rate than the jazzy resume guy. Each has to perform basically the same job his first time offshore until he proves he is capable of more.

In a boom time like this we are going to see a lot of people sent offshore that would not be there if oil was $20 a barrel. Keep an open mind, give everyone a shot and the opportunity to prove their ineptness. This seems to be the approach management is taking with regard to filling ops/project manager positions of late. Accept the state of the business out there in the trenches as well folks.

[luckyjim37]

Maybe the companies should look at where the trainees are distributed to cut down the accidents.

If you have one supervisor and two trainees offshore it is a reciepe for disaster.

Some guys have a good aptitude and no qualifications others have a load of qualifications and no common sense give me the first one any day of the week.

There need to be standards but why are we one of the only industries in the world that only recruits qualified technical personnel and do not train from ground level up.

Where are our apprenticeships all the old boys rave on about time served and crap but where is that in our industry today?

We need more training schools and more continuous training for these guys coming through now. Get them young and train them well. This is a huge growth industry and we do not pay enough to pull high class technical personnal in as they are already working and earning loads of money elswhere.

[Author]

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