Is it time for a Union?? (Old thread)

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Folks,

Given the way that things have panned out over the last couple of years, what with mergers and takeovers , where the only people to benifit have been the companies themselves is it not time we the lowly employee’s stood up for our selves?

Why should we be subjected to ever decreasing wages and an ever decreasing pool of knowledge due to cost cutting?

Have we finally become a dying breed?

We work for companies that deal with unionised employees, in other parts of the world, where they dare not go against the unions, where pay and conditions are a dam sight better than we get in the UK . So why is it that we have not formed our own union to stand up for us? Are we really that self centred ? Is it really a case of i’m allright Jack?

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Folks,

Are we really that self centred ? Is it really a case of i’m allright Jack?

We’ve discussed this in great detail in the past, and I came to the conclusion that the anwser to your last two question is:

Yes, on both counts.

This kind of thing has been tried in the UK before on the diving front with bad results. I’m convinced the same would happen on the ROV front too.

I like the idea, but it would need a few dedicated individuals, with the kind of time available that I just do not have, to not mess around asking but to actually go ahead and create a union and then advertise the fact. They could even use this site to make people aware of the existence of an new ROV union, I have no problem with that.

Any takers??

best regards
James Mc

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Has anyone really taken it seriously though?

If i new where to start and who to ask the right questions to i’d give it a go myself. But is there any real intrest in improving both pay and conditions or are people really just intrested in the idea without the commitment?

If anybody does know how to go about setting up a union or knows of where to look please let me know.

for all of those out there that would welcome a union then here is the place to put your view down.

Mcdee

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Hi Mcdee

As James says, this subject has been discussed here so many times and with no way forward. The reasons are probably many fold and I don’t know them all but the first one :

We may be lowly paid offshore but who is going to give up this low wage to start a union? The person to start the union could not work offhsore (In my eyes??) as he / she would be too busy trying to get the correct results for everybody else, who would pay there wage? from union dues? how much dues? how much wage? It not that we could get around a table like in civvy street (so to speak) where local branches form a greater sized union to cover the country. We are as the saying goes “4 corners of the Earth”

Second one: as James says and I totally agree “I am alright jacK” you only have to look, listen and learn as the saying goes….everywhere you will here ROV people say “I would never work for that rate” only to find 2 weeks later they are…..the reason they (and all of us) have to pay bills. I have been in the game 11 years and I personally know people who have done just the above and I mean for well below par wages when times dictate they have to.

We moan at them by saying….”pay will never improve if people go out for stupid money etc”

Check out how much or should I say how little ROV people (and divers) are paid in the middle east, you will be suprised. But lads still go there to get what ever they can when work is unavailable, ever tried a union in the middle east? some how I don’t think so. But …..if only

As with every thing else in life it is a case of “supply and demand” if your were the bean counter would you rather pay 250 pound a day or 200 pound a day?

Lets say that we all became brave enough and every single ROV in the world was either on deck or sat on the sea bed and ALL the offshore crews (and the back to backs and agency lads….Tom Dick & Harry) said we are not moving until we get a 20% pay rise…then we might see a pay rise. Until then not all the tea in China / Unions or wishful thinking will ever change the situation….the companies “have us by the b***s” (pardon ladies)

2 years ago as a superintendent I asked my boss for a pay rise..answer was: “although you are good, market condition dictate I don’t have to” (that is word for word) I asked for an explanation, answer: if you leave ther are 10 others who will go out in your place for less. That has not and will not change regardless to / if there is an introduction of a union or anything else, there will always be somebody else. You will never get everysingle person who operates / maintains ROVs to go on strike and that is the only way that you could hope to change how the companies view us.

In closing, I would love some how to have some sort of control in how much we all got paid, I agree that (and I have seen various company documentation to prove it) ROV people are one of, if not “the” lowest paid technical worker offshore and in many cases wages / day rates / perks call it as you wish have gone down over the past 12 – 24 months and will continue to do so in my opinion

Comments please?????????

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

I cant see the point in a specific ROV union.

I am in a Union – as an Engineer – which is what most ROV people are. I get annoyed at people saying I should be in the Divers Union – why? I am not a diver, train driver or Seafarer, I’m an Engineer!

I joined purely to have backup for any help I needed with dealing with the Company. If you need legal advice, accidents at work, etc. then the Union is your insurance policy.

I have used my Union on 3 occasions over the years – one being in sorting out Norwegian tax, and another on Working Time Directive.

As a result, my Norwegian tax was dealt with better at work, and we are about to get paid holidays as a Dayrater. So, it works as far as I am concerned!

Unions will never sort out pay, or more pay. But they are useful on lots of other fronts and I would highly recommend people to join. By law, if a certain percentage of an employers workforce are in a Union, then they HAVE to involve the union, cant remember the exact details'(sorry, I am talking about UK specifically, dunno about rest of the world)

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Hi Ray

Makes sense in what you are saying and I agree.

Interesting point about paid holidays as a day rater whats all that about?

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

My self i would join a Union ??? if the Companies honuored a min pay rate structure for different positions in different Sectors and of course i was happy with the pay award etc.

It is not ourselves who need to unite you need the Companies to do so

But as we all know there is many different Nationality working now and they are not going to pay a Philipino a Indian and a Brit the same or SA
there would be 4 different wage day rates or contracts.

(I worked in Hong Kong For Gammon/Balfour Beatty there was a Brit Indian from London they would not pay him the same as the other Brits)

I would always be happy if my work place had a wage agreement but it changes up and down with the wind in all careers.

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

As Ray has done…. joining a union that already exists, for the perks on offer, IMHO is a far better bet than trying to form an ROV union which at best would only offer similar perks.

I personally like the idea of an ROV union but the notion is flawed for the very reasons Deapseacon has stated:

But as we all know there is many different Nationality working now and they are not going to pay a Philipino a Indian and a Brit the same or SA there would be 4 different wage day rates or contracts.

(I worked in Hong Kong For Gammon/Balfour Beatty there was a Brit Indian from London they would not pay him the same as the other Brits)

plus the “I’m OK Jack” approach from a lot of people in the game.

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

So it’s been discussed to death, nobody has ever done anything about it!!

and as Mercedes said

Lets say that we all became brave enough and every single ROV in the world was either on deck or sat on the sea bed and ALL the offshore crews ;and the back to backs and agency lads….Tom Dick & Harry; said we are not moving until we get a 20% pay rise…then we might see a pay rise. Until then not all the tea in China / Unions or wishful thinking will ever change the situation….the companies “have us by the b***s”; pardon ladies!!

Only in uniting the already fragmented work force are we ever going to achieve any assemblance of fairness.

And OK as you have already pointed out we could form an association but we’d still be in the same situation as we are now only we’d have a disgruntled association.

As things stand now and how things are going to develop in the future if nothing is done to stop our employers running wild, god only knows.
We are all witness to the decline in decent, well motivated crews. Replaced by cheap labour from far off shores ( My appologises to those who are worth thier salt) in the companys quest for lower running cost and higher profit margins.

I had said that i am willing to do the footwork if there is the support . but declaring your support and then not doing anything seems very typical of the attitude of alot of people in our industry.

Do you not think that we should put this sort of attitude behind us, become brave and start asking for what we want? Somebody will eventually listen……..

Mcdee

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

We’ll help…. in that we will allow you to advertise the union in ROVworld.

The conditions are:

1) It must be made plain that the Union is not part of, or run by ROVworld.com

2) ROVworld.com staff will not become involved with membership or administration duties for the Union.

How will we help?
We will offer a dedicated section in the Forum for Union usage so that all union discussions are kept in one area of the Forum.
You, or an appointed member, will be able to moderate the union area of the forum, but limited to moderating just that area.

You will be able to add Union news items to the front end news of the site (on the main industry news page). As with all news items the ROVworld staff will preview the news before uploading. This is to ensure that the good standing of ROVworld.com is not compromised.

So basically our help is in the form of instantly giving the Union an online medium, on a well known site,

Should a union be formed.
Both Gina and I would join (as members but not union admin)…. once the entity has been formed and we have read and agreed with what’s on offer from the ROV Union/Association.

I prefer association by the way.

I sense this is going to fire this thread up a bit 🙂

best regards
James Mc
ROVworld.com webmaster.

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Hi James, Gina & All

Yep I think you have started the ball rolling down the hill quite quickly!!

As for joinning (if and when it comes to being formed) I guess the standard answer would be yes, but unless the companies who employ us recognise the exsistance of the uni0n / assoication would it all not be hot air?

For the proposal to work, in this case it would appear that "to work" means an increase in pay for ALL ROV people, be it salary or day rate, we would need the matority (95%?????) of ROV offshore people to (a) agree to join (b) prepared to stick to their guns and NOT work if the pay increase does not come.

In my humble opinion all the companies would do is look elsewhere for their manpower ie cheap labour (in our minds) but for some of them what we would call cheap labour the day rate is huge compared to what they get in their home land.

I have just returned from a job in West Africa were there was about 95% of the people (who made up the whole crew of the boat) that I am talking about (with the greatest respect) they were over the moon with their wage but you and I wouldn’t get out of bed for it.

I am all for increasing pay / perks etc but I just can not see a way to acheive it unless the bean counters have a sudden rush of **** to their brains.

As I said earlier it would need every single ROV person or at least 95%? to down tools and that just will not happen, you and Gina know that, I know that and everysingle person reading this thread knows that.

Its the good old (a) Supply & Demand, (b) people going out for stupid money, (c) influx of people who (wrongly) believe there is a killing to be made looking after a little thing that goes in the water now and again!!!!!!

I have been amazed over the past 12 / 18 talking to this new breed some times I think they are from another planet. One person refused to work as he had done 2 straight 14 hour shifts, he reckoned he had never worked so hard in his life!!!
Comments please?

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Here is a few quotes from the OILC website

"The Uni0n of Choice"

OILC is for you if you are a construction/engineering worker, a caterer, a drilling worker; whether you are in production or drilling support services. It makes no difference. If you work on a platform, a semi, a jack-up or a service vessel. You can join. If you are in the industry you are eligible for "the offshore uni0n", whether employed by an operator or by a contractor.

I asked for further information and suggested that a post from an OILC representative may be well received on one of the ROV forums.

The Reply I recieved;

Hi,

I refer to your earlier email regarding representation for ROV crews. As ROV work is usually done from diving support vessels and unfortunately we are not party to shipping agreements, we would not be in the best position to represent your colleagues.

Regards.

Lorna Robertson
Administrator
lorna@oilc.org

Perhaps would be better name "OILC – The Selective Uni0n"
Must admit the comment…

"As ROV work is usually done from diving support vessels"

…did surprise me as to how uneducated this representative is concerning what can only be described as a sizeable Offshore Community.

[Gina McLauchlan]

This is one carried over from the old forum

Hi. I have been following this topic with interest for some time now and I must say I an not impressed with the answer you got from OILC. This is in contrast to my situation, I am the Uni0n leader in my company.
We work mostly from own ships but we are not part of any shipping Uni0n, but part of the oilworkers Uni0n. Our oilworkers Uni0n does not care if we work from ships , platforms or whatever, they are there for us.

I just got an invitation to a conference in Aberdeen 20-22. May, held by OILC. Looks like OILC wants more contact and cooperation with the Norwegian Uni0ns.

What if some of You guys showed up on this conference and starting asking questions why they will not help you and where they got the idea that most of ROV jobs were done from dive support vessels?

Please post reply if I can supply more information how things are done here in Norway regarding Uni0ns and so on.

regards
Peter

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