MTCS

[Lenny]

Is it possible that this company can continue to generate Rov Certificates? It just seems so obvious that it is just money for nothing. The worst part about it, is that client/companies or whoever is actually requesting this rubbish.

Ive been a ROV Supervisor longer than this company has been around and I need to pay 300 pounds for them to assess me? It just seems ridiculous. I mean, if we were actually receiving some kind of training, then it may be different. Unfortunately, we say, oh well, its not that much money compared to losing a 6 week hitch, just because you dont have their silly certificate. Furthermore to make matters worse, the certificate expires! So according to them, after an additional 3 years of experience, somewhere along the line, you are no longer qualified because their certificate expired and they expect you to do the whole assessment again and pay 300 pounds!

Ive been over this with IMCA several times and have received confirmation from them, that there is no guideline that says Rov certs expire. With all the other courses, GWO, BOISET, FOET, IMIST, MIST, High Voltage, H2S, TSSB, and the OGUK Medical, do we really need another piece of paper that will expire?

I would guess our only action is too not use MTCS.

[Roy Simson]

I fully understand how you feel and your not alone there there hundreds if not thousands of guys who have been in the industry for many years who are been asked for a competence cert .However as I have said many times in the past go to your previous or current employer and request a letter it will cost you nothing if you go to MTCS they will charge over £300 . I fully understand that many people reading this may not have worked for some time and I have spoken to IMCA and they told me as long as you get something in writing that not longer than 5 years its ok . However as I have said again many times before none of this is mandatory but many of the clients all over the world have had a visit from a agent from MTCS selling them the idea of set standards and many accept this .

All this came about with agencys a few years ago sending cheap unskilled labour offshore and the client paying top rates only to find the guys had no idea what they were doing and in the end sending the guys home and replacing them with experienced guys however this cost them them ref:- IV Offshore .

In the end the client wants to comfirm the guys level of experience . As for MTCS I have no idea how they can issue competence certs since they have never met the guy all this should left with the rov operator since he is the person you have worked for and who knows your level of competence .

But like you pointed out with the amount of certs required seems to go up every year I still dont understand why your OPITO certs are not valid for GWO , STCW lets face it most of it is the same format plus you need HV cert , MIST , Free Fall life boat , H2S and your OGUK medical to keep all these certs current its going to cost about £3000 which brings me to current day rates which as we all know are very poor plus clients only paying half rate for travel days is this the end of free lance personnel . So in your case I should contact IMCA and get them to confirm requirements you can try this guy chris.baldwin@imca-int.com or try the main IMCA web site . A good habit to get into is every rov operator you work for request a work reference from them send that out with your cv it can be past onto future clients .

[Lenny]

Thanks for the reply. Im not sure that our problem is the client. I have been making it a point to speak to the clients on board. The majority of them say they dont look for these certs. If they are really interested they compare log books to seaman books to see if the guy has actually been where he says and in what capacity he has worked.

Really, we dont even present our CV ect. to the client, normally we give it to the company or agency, they present a whole package to the end client and await approval. Whether or not it is really the client that is asking, we really dont know. This is the latest that I heard from HPR.

I have also contacted IMCA several times about this and have pasted their replies below. Other than not using MTCS, Im not sure what we can do about it. IMCA is pretty clear on their guidelines but that doesnt seem to be helping us at all. There is quite a bit of info below but have a read and pass it on .

Thanks

From: HPR Recruitment <recruitment@hpruk.com>
To: HPR Recruitment <recruitment@hpruk.com>
Subject: ROV Competency certification
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:17:50 +0000

Hi all,

As the market recovers from one of the most brutal downturns in the Industry’s history, it’s apparent to HPR UK that, more than ever, our customers are seeking quality candidates to work with. So-much-so, that one of them has decreed that, as of the beginning of 2019 they will no longer be accepting candidates who do not possess recognised competency certification e.g. MTCS/IMCA etc.

Although HPR UK has always been keen to highlight competency amongst its regular workforce, we have never been strict in requesting that this as an essential. However, to work with the above customer, this will have to be the case from here-on-in.

Conversations we’ve been having with other customers suggest that more may follow. For us; it would be equally valuable to gather thoughts from the sub-contractor community to add to any customer conversations we may have in the future.

Could we please ask that anyone who has competency certification (whatever flavour); please make us aware and send through an updated copy to recruitment@hpruk.com<mailto:recruitment@hpruk.com>, with the subject heading “competency”. Feel free to add your thoughts on this subject.

Thank you for your continued support.

Here is a reply from Nick Hough

IMCA sets no mandate, doctrine or requirement in this respect – there is no IMCA requirement saying that certificates of (ROV) competence must be renewed every three years.
IMCA makes makes no endorsement or comment on the policy of any given supplier of training services regarding the expiry of validity of their course certification.
That said, this is something that is of interest to the IMCA ROV management committee and the IMCA Competence and Training Committee, and with your agreement, I will pass on the fact of this query – no names, of course – to them for info.

Best wishes

Nick Hough
Technical Adviser

IMCA – International Marine Contractors Association

This is also from IMCA

A number of individuals have contacted the IMCA secretariat over the last few months seeking clarity on their ROV technician competency and operator grade status. Those seeking this guidance have not just been new ROV personnel but have also included senior, experienced ROV personnel at supervisor level, with many years of service in the ROV industry. Almost all have one common query, and that is to find out how they can apply for or request an IMCA certificate or accreditation of their ROV skills, grade or position in their company. A significant proportion are seeking such accreditation after they have left their previous employer and want their experience and qualifications endorsed retrospectively.
The reason for these requests is primarily because some commercial training providers are issuing certificates with an IMCA logo on the document, suggesting that the certificate is a
uthorised or accredited by IMCA. IMCA members already know that a condition of membership is that the use of the IMCA logo must be in accordance with the terms and conditions of membership. Non-members use the logo simply because they would claim to have followed the IMCA competence frameworks and guidance documents which are freely available on the IMCA website for downloading. The secretariat has seen evidence of such documents sent into the secretariat by individuals seeking clarification on whether such documents are authorised by the Association. In addition, photographic evidence of some ROV technicians with supposedly official stamps used in logbooks with the claim that the signatory or assessor endorsing the logbook entry is an IMCA Certified Supervisor No. XXXXX , have recently been received.
This guidance note is deemed necessary to inform the ROV operating community about this issue and to formally state IMCAs position on the accreditation of ROV technician skills, grades and qualifications. IMCA does not and never has issued IMCA Certification or IMCA Accreditation for any ROV technician competence listed in our competence framework, or any other company or training provider competence framework. No certificate of ROV technician competence, including but not limited to, pilots, engineers, supervisors or superintendents, should be issued with an IMCA logo on it or state that the qualifying course for which the certificate was issued is an IMCA accredited or approved course. ROV Technicians are invited to use this information note in support of their discussions with employers if they are asked to provide such certificates.
IMCA members can refer to the instructions regarding the use of the logo which are available on the IMCA website. Where an ROV training course was completed using relevant IMCA guidance, IMCA training provider members are recommended to provide a covering letter for the course certificate, stating exactly what guidance has been used during the course. As an IMCA member they are authorised to state that they are members and may use the IMCA logo within their official company letter heading or stationary (but not the certificate itself). Non-IMCA members are not authorised to use the IMCA logo under any circumstances and may be the subject of legal action were they to be found to be doing so.
For further information point of contact within the IMCA secretariat is Chris Baldwin the secretary of the Remote Systems and ROV Division Management Committee at Chris.Baldwin@imca-int.com.
AB
For more details, please contact:
Chris.Baldwin@imca-int.com

And finally this is from MTCS. After already completing their competency twice, they still think its necessary that I do it again! Strangely enough, the price has doubled since the last time.

Thank you for your email with regards to renewing you Supervisor Certificate, having checked your records I see you obtained this by doing an Individual Competence Assessment (ICA), to renew you will need to do the same again. As an ICA allows you to:
?
Gain a formal Certificate of Competence for the role at which you currently work
Renew an existing Certificate of Competence for the role at which you currently work

The ICA process provides a formal assessment of your experience, to date, against the IMCA Competence guidelines.

The process requires you to provide evidence of your experience to date and typically includes:

1. Competence appraisal forms (obtained from companies you have worked for)
· You are required to submit 2 appraisals (these may also be called “performance reviews” or “end of trip reports”), obtained from different supervisors / managers you have worked for offshore
· These must be dated within the last 2 years, and must clearly name the company involved
2. Witness statement (blank form provided in the documentation sent to you upon purchase)
· Submit the form, signed by a company manager you have worked for. This should cover a period of at least 1 year
· If you have not been employed by that company for this long, submit a second witness statement from a previous employing company
3. Work records
· Please send for assessment a copy of the following:
o Your current certificate of medical fitness to work offshore
o Your current certificate of survival training
o Your MIST or iMIST certificate if applicable
And Either
§ Your IMCA logbook
o Or
§ A company CV/resume and
§ A company work history
4. Essential knowledge
· Complete, write or record a report on your most recent job offshore, of between 500 and 1000 words. This must be your own work, and may reference copies of company documentation (which are not included in the word count). This should include:
o An explanation of your job role and who you are responsible to
o Ensure dates, vessel/installation names, company names, field or project titles are included
o An example of a specific work activity that happened during this period
o Explain how you ensure that work you are responsible for is conducted safely and efficiently
o Explain how you ensure your work is done to the requirements of:
§ Your employer
§ Your client/customer
o Explain how you overcame a problem during this period, and what you did to ensure that the problem does not occur again
§ This may be a technical or management problem, but must reflect your job role
o Ensure you attach a copy of the documentation you completed as a result of solving this problem, for example:
§ Fault report / maintenance log
§ Safety observation / hazard identification card
§ Assessment / performance appraisal
§ Improvement report / management of change report
§ Disciplinary / grievance report
§ Non-conformance report / lessons learnt report

Once collated the evidence would be uploaded to your MTCS Online account.

The total cost of the Assessment is £300.00 including VAT and includes:

· Access to MTCS Online and the Individual Competence Assessment (ICA) documentation
· Assessment and training needs analysis of the documentation you forwarded
· The issue of one candidate certificate of competence (3 year expiry date from date of assessment, no competence certificate is issued without an expiry date)
· The issue of a candidate action plan

Please note one Individual Competence Assessment can only cover one job role.

The ICA documentation can be purchased using the following link:

Individual Competence Assessment (ICA)

Please note the ICA must be completed within 12 months of purchase

Upon receipt of payment we will forward the documentation via MTCS Online to your requested e-mail address.

I hope this information is of assistance however please do get in touch if you require any further information regarding your certification

Kind regards,

Sue Axon

MTCS (UK) Ltd

Tel: +44 15394 40200

[Roy Simson]

Yes it would seem we have both been speaking to the same guys at IMCA as you can see from both of there letters IMCA have nothing to do with the MTCS Competencey scheme . As you can see from there Reply " IMCA sets no mandate, doctrine or requirement in this respect – there is no IMCA requirement saying that certificates of (ROV) competence must be renewed every three years.
IMCA makes makes no endorsement or comment on the policy of any given supplier of training services regarding the expiry of validity of their course certification"

The problem is like I said is the client over the years MTCS has contacted Rov Operators + Clients all over the world and got them to buy into this scheme however its not a new Idea as I was running a job for Oceaneering back in 1997 and I had to write a competencey assessment for all of the rov crew , But thats fine as I am working with the guys and you get to know there good and bad points from flying skills / maintenance and safety procedures .

MTCS is nothing more than a training school in the same way as Subnet and all the others they have other the years sold this scheme to many but like I have said to many others and as you can see from IMCA its not a mandatory requirement .
If it was mandatory requirement Rov operators would be the ones doing the assessment and not training schools who have no Idea who you are , As for MTCS requirements its very clear all it means is you send in your log book " Thats if you have one " and a cheque for £300 .

1. Competence appraisal forms (obtained from companies you have worked for)
· You are required to submit 2 appraisals (these may also be called “performance reviews” or “end of trip reports”), obtained from different supervisors / managers you have worked for offshore
· These must be dated within the last 2 years, and must clearly name the company involved
2. Witness statement (blank form provided in the documentation sent to you upon purchase)
· Submit the form, signed by a company manager you have worked for. This should cover a period of at least 1 year
· If you have not been employed by that company for this long, submit a second witness statement from a previous employing company
3. Work records
· Please send for assessment a copy of the following:
o Your current certificate of medical fitness to work offshore
o Your current certificate of survival training
o Your MIST or iMIST certificate if applicable
And Either
§ Your IMCA logbook
o Or
§ A company CV/resume and
§ A company work history
4. Essential knowledge
· Complete, write or record a report on your most recent job offshore, of between 500 and 1000 words. This must be your own work, and may reference copies of company documentation (which are not included in the word count). This should include:
o An explanation of your job role and who you are responsible to
o Ensure dates, vessel/installation names, company names, field or project titles are included
o An example of a specific work activity that happened during this period
o Explain how you ensure that work you are responsible for is conducted safely and efficiently
o Explain how you ensure your work is done to the requirements of:
§ Your employer
§ Your client/customer
o Explain how you overcame a problem during this period, and what you did to ensure that the problem does not occur again
§ This may be a technical or management problem, but must reflect your job role
o Ensure you attach a copy of the documentation you completed as a result of solving this problem, for example:
§ Fault report / maintenance log
§ Safety observation / hazard identification card
§ Assessment / performance appraisal
§ Improvement report / management of change report
§ Disciplinary / grievance report
§ Non-conformance report / lessons learnt report

So unless I see anything from IMCA I will be not be changing any thing as at the end of the day the client is paying big bucks and wants what he is paying for this is why its best get from each of your past clients a work reference which can be handed on to future clients , As for the letter from HPR yes I also got the same and I replied telling them the same it was funny because HPR cc the letter to every body on the mailing list so your find you now have a list of a few hundred rov personnel .

😀

[Lenny]

The point I was trying to make is that MTCS is giving no value for the money. The only way we can stop them is not to use them.

We have to pass the word around to the other forums.

[Roy Simson]

IMCA does not recognise this certificate issued by MTCS as you can see from the reply its worthless , IMCA does support the idea that people have to show there competency which is fair due to the amount of people trying to sell them selfs as experince rov personnel when there not which is why I do not look at peoples log books when they come into my shack , Within a short time of working with them you know if there experinced or not .

As for MTCS issuing competency certs yes I agree its not value for money as they have no idea on your competency since how can they . Competency certs or work references should be issued by the Rov operators .

As for contacting other rov personnel just look back on the email from HPR and your find a list of over 200 rov personnel but it wont do any good as its all down to the clients requirements , If you look at wind farm work some clients accept OPITO and others will only accept GWO why on earth do we need training to work at Heights for subsea inspection . The rest of the GWO format is the same as OPITO but you need to do a GWO cert every 2 years , OPITO last as you know for 4 .

I think your find many of the guys reading this topic know already about MTCS but like I said some of the clients have bought into the scheme and there the people you have to convince .

[jaso]

Guys
is anyone working out there with one of these MTSC certs that has expired ?
My last job the client didnt care that it was expired as long as i had a Cert.
It was Aramco and they seem to be more Education and log book/seamans book interested.
What if everyone just doesnt renew their certs?
Any thoughts on that.

[Roy Simson]

As I have already said if you require a competence assessment done you just ask your past or current employer for a letter or a work reference at the end of the day the client wants to know his getting what his paying for .

As for MTCS I have yet to see any think from IMCA stating that your assessments must be done by a training school like I have said many times before its means very little as your just buying a cert . All I what I have said can be confirmed by emailing IMCA .

[jaso]

As I have already said if you require a competence assessment done you just ask your past or current employer for a letter or a work reference at the end of the day the client wants to know his getting what his paying for .

As for MTCS I have yet to see any think from IMCA stating that your assessments must be done by a training school like I have said many times before its means very little as your just buying a cert . All I what I have said can be confirmed by emailing IMCA .

Raptor
totally agree with you and you obvs have alot more experience in the industry than me.
I said this to a company recently that offered me some work, i worked had for them for 5 yrs before non stop.
The boss their just said NO LETTER from us, if you dont have an in date cert you get no work.
I told them all the IMCA stuff sent them links etc but they would not listen to me

They again said its not us its the client but like i said in last post, last client i worked for didnt care as long as i actually had one, out of date or not they didnt care.
So i dont know why they are being like this. and its just started to happen. 2 years ago they didnt mention it to me
i dont think i need assessment as i ve been in constant work for 13 yrs with 3 months being the longest time off and that was me studying something else full time.

the problem is if everyone just bows down and gets re assessed and doesnt ask for a letter then they can keep doing this.
if i tell them im not getting a new cert i dont work and some else will just do the work coz they are desperate

everyone reading this needs to Hold fast and do what you said, ask for a letter and if they wont give you one dont work for them.
thanks for your replies in this thread.

[Roy Simson]

Well I can only speak for myself but if people still continue to do there competence assessments via MTCS all there doing is just buying a cert and nothing more since how can MTCS assess your competence when they dont even know you ? Assessments should be done in house by the companys that know your working standards . When I was running projects for Oceaneering it was standard procedure to fill out competence assessment on each crew member so this is nothing new .

If you have been working for the same company for 5 years and they wont issue you with a work reference then there is someone very strange going on however should that be the case contact the person you was working under and get them to write you out a work reference as all we are looking for is a way to confirm your level of experience .

Its good practice every time you work for a company to request a work reference then when a future client requests proof of competence you just pull out your work references next to all your other certs and documents .

[jaso]

raptor
roger that
very good advise ill talk with my OIM. we have a social relationship outside of work to, he sails so we talk boats.
And yes i thought it was very strange to. at first i thought it was just the new office girl who knows not much and just looked at my cert like a Medical.
But the ROV manager jumped in and said NO LETTER
thanks again dude you right
Quote
"When I was running projects for Oceaneering it was standard procedure to fill out competence assessment on each crew member so this is nothing new . "
that should be SOP

[Roy Simson]

All ok good luck on getting a work reference I dont see any problems that a previous Superintendent , Supervisor or Project manager should be able to write you out a reference letter with full contact details . I have done many over the years for people that have worked under me and from time to time I do get companys or agencys contacting me to confirm the reference .

Cheers

[Author]

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