ROV Pay Rates Page – Poll (Please Vote/Comment)

[James McLauchlan]

Hi All

Today we were contacted by a well known ROV operator (Company) representative whom, shall we say, made it very plain that they function in at upper management level within the said company.
No! I am not going to say who it was, nor am I going to mention the company name either. Given that there are 19 companies on the rates page….. who?…. could keep you guessing for a while.
That’s not the point here.

The person in question put it to us that the ROV rates we have been publishing is…

commercially sensitive and confidential between company and our employees

and

respectfully ask you to remove this thread from your website as it shows disrespect for the employees who do not want their own dayrates/salary details in the public domain

All the information published is in fact sent to us only by employees of the company (not) mentioned above. Here, at ROVworld.com, we do not have back door access to the so called commercially sensitive and confidential information mentioned.

So in simple terms.. the information being published is in fact being supplied by the very employees that the person mentions.

The information is as accurate as the last update we receive from anyone operating within the organisation in question.

What we would like, is some feedback on this.

Do you really think that the manager is concerned for the privacy of his employees who may "not want their own dayrates/salary details in the public domain" or do you feel that the concern could more along the lines of, it’s all out in the open for all to see?

Could it be the case that that this manager, or his staff, have been approached by employees that have seen better rates elsewhere and are asking why they are receiving a lower rate themselves?

Our rates page has proven to be popular with companies and employees alike.
In the past we have been contacted with congratulations for our efforts, from people at all levels and from various companies. Heck! some companies have even used the information to assist in setting their own rates!

However, this is the first time we’ve been contacted in such a negative manner. Nobody has even come close to suggesting that we remove the whole thread/rates page just to suit their own concerns.

The thing is, the rates page is as comprehensive as it is because employees have felt the need to send us the day rates in the first instance.

As said before (often)… all information received will always be treated in the utmost confidence and not one persons details will be divulged at any point. This steadfast rule remains locked firmly in place.

Sensible constructive comments, on any of the above, and your feelings on this matter would be most appreciated.

Our website answers to the needs of it’s members as a majority and not to the requests on the minority, no matter at what level they operate within the Industry.
With that in mind a poll has been created on this subject.. Please Vote.
All votes are anonymous!

[Ray Shields]

Of course they dont want people to see that they are paying less that a competitor so that their guys can say "hey, we want more money".

And, of course, they also dont want clients, competitors etc to know what their rates are as this can affect their bidding process.

But this website is here for the WORKERS, not the Companies. The Companies already do a good job of divide and conquer (we do a fairly good job ourselves!) and knowing what the market place is paying helps workers negotiate better raises, or helps them decide to move to other companies.

The biggest problem is the rates quoted are taken on good faith, they may be highly speculative, they could be complete lies – though with the amount of people using this board, Im sure someone would turn round and say "I work there, these rates aint right"

So, I would say to the Companies, pay the best rate and then you can then say "look at how great we are, come and work for us!", make it a selling point, not a dark secret.

[TheBigYin]

Is someone from the Club getting upset that there pay rates are causing there crew to leave and find employment else where.

If there so upset maybe the manager should up his rates not moan about a posts on Web page, the rates are posted by the very employee that they are disrespecting by keeping there rates low.

Maybe they should think about how commercially sensitive the number of boys walking out the Door IS!!.

Keep the Page

Let your feet do the talking.

[James]

Good Day All:

Having worked for the same ROV company for over ten years here in the States I feel the more knowledge one has the stronger his/her position is when it comes to negoations with management.
Keep up the work, you have my vote to list the payscales

Though I am a new member I have been following this site for the last couple of years.

[KeithR]

Hi All

Today we were contacted by a well known ROV operator (Company) representative whom, shall we say, made it very plain that they function in at upper management level within the said company.
No! I am not going to say who it was, nor am I going to mention the company name either. Given that there are 19 companies on the rates page….. who?…. could keep you guessing for a while.
That’s not the point here.

The person in question put it to us that the ROV rates we have been publishing is…

commercially sensitive and confidential between company and our employees

and

respectfully ask you to remove this thread from your website as it shows disrespect for the employees who do not want their own dayrates/salary details in the public domain

James, I see that in order to suit your own agenda you have only quoted certain statements from the P.M. I sent you yesterday. I have attached a copy of this P.M. below so that any Sonsub employees and your members can understand that I do not have a problem with discussions about dayrates etc or if someone wants to onpass their own individual salary details. What I do have an issue with is when someone unfortunately does not have the integrity to respect their fellow employees confidentiality and makes their dayrates public information without their knowledge or consent.

Copy of P.M.
James, I am dissapointed that you have allowed this information to be displayed on your website. Irrespective of who has posted this information it is commercially sentative and confidential between company and our employees. I do not have an issue with general discussions about dayrates etc or if someone wants to make public their own dayrate. This is different when a supposedly accurate list of all of our dayrates is published. I would repectfully ask you to remove this thread from your website as it shows disrespect for the employees who do not want their own dayrates/salary details in the public domain. regards Keith Robathan, Asset Manager, Saipem UK, Sonsub Division.

[Gina McLauchlan]

Hello,

The reason the Rates page came about was we (ROVworld.com) were asked a number of times to display rates information for the ROV sector in an easy to understand/read format.

This I have done to the best of my ability, and at the end of the day, it is the employees of the listed companies who send their rates to us/me for insertion into the page. I add the entries, in a manner that shows the basic groups most ROV companies have, making comparison easy for the guys and girls.

And, I think, it is the fact that it is now easy to see what company ‘x‘, ‘y‘ or ‘z‘ companies are paying workers in the same position. This makes it harder for companies to squeeze the limits out of what they can pay (or not pay), because the workers know what the going rate is for that position. (see below quote)

I would repectfully ask you to remove this thread from your website as it shows disrespect for the employees who do not want their own dayrates/salary details in the public domain.

At the end of the day, it is the employees who send their rates to me. I do not add names to the given rates, as this could see them singled out by the company, thus all entries are anonymous.

This is a place where the employees can view the going rate for their position and during the yearly review have a better idea what to ask his boss for. Is this the big problem here…that the employees are asking for more money because their rate isn’t high enough? This is where some companies have seen the way the market place is moving and used the rates page to show clients that the rates are going up and therefore their rates must go up to keep the people they have employed to carry out the jobs required.

Companies have different ways of keeping the workers happy, and therefore keeping the staff at the end of the day. Without the workers there will be no company! And in today’s society a lot is dependent on the level of income, that is what the fight is about, we strive to do better for ourselves and our families. If we can have better conditions working for ‘z‘ than we can at company ‘x‘ we will then change company if the opportunity presents itself. So, without the rates information at hand, how would we know these opportunities exist?

This on a whole is a fairly transient industry, people are employed with the company for as long as the company can make profit, when profit margins reduce, so do the level of employees. It’s fair, it’s they way it is in this industry, people who work in the industry understand that too. The day rate people have less security than the employees, that’s why they get paid a bit more on average, to compensate for the lack of health care and pension (dare I use that word) benefits that the employees get.

In the end, let the people who view this site determine what is to be displayed here, how many of them feel they ‘do not want their own day rates/salary details in the public domain’. In the end, if people did not what this information to be displayed they would not send the information to begin with. It’s not up to us, its not up to the big companies, it’s up to the people whose lives this effects every day, these are the people who make up this comunity.

Regards to All
Gina

[James McLauchlan]

Keith Robathan, Asset Manager, Saipem UK, Sonsub Division wrote:

James, I see that in order to suit your own agenda you have only quoted certain statements from the P.M. I sent you yesterday. I have attached a copy of this P.M. below so that any Sonsub employees and your members can understand that I do not have a problem with discussions about dayrates etc or if someone wants to onpass their own individual salary details. What I do have an issue with is when someone unfortunately does not have the integrity to respect their fellow employees condidentiality and makes their dayrates public information without their knowledge or consent.

Keith
It is refreshing to have some more management level members around here whereby they can balance the debate with a management perspective.

If you choose to assume that I am suiting my own agenda by quoting only certain elements of your PM to me, then that is your call.

If my own agenda was all I was interested in then I would not have started this website, along with Gina, 7 years ago and would simply have quoted your whole PM, plus mentioned who you were and the company you work for. But that’s is not what I did, I protected your identity and the identity of your company. Now that you have chosen to debate this out in the open then that is fine by me. It will give all our members, and no doubt a number of your employees, an insight into how you come across in an open debate.

As is common practice in the media I retain the right to quote only certain elements of your message and protect the source. You also have the right to let us all know who you are and who you represent which you have just done. Why, I am not sure, but you have.

Please note that the rates are published by my wife Gina and not I. You may not be familiar with who Gina is, but she also works offshore on the subsea inspection side of things. The Pay Rates page is her project and she is the main player on this on this. No matter what is said though, I support her view and will not be seen to do otherwise.

The way I see it if companies have even rates across the board then bidding and operating costs become more manageable. Profit targets can be more easily seen and better met. This fact was not lost on the AODC back in the 1970’s when divers rates became standardised throughout the industry. The AODC didn’t simply agree to standardise rates because it was a nice thing to do for the divers.
But shareholder satisfaction is not the concern of this website.
We operate to help satisfy the needs of our members by passing on what ever information we can, to assist them in gaining as much as they can by way of knowledge or remuneration from their chosen industry.

In the ROVworld the ROV operators (Companies) still like to operate the ‘secret pay rate system’ because they feel it gives the company an advantage over the employees IMHO. I can’t see any other reason.

One thing I fundamentally disagree with is your supposed concern for employees of Sonsub having their rates published without their consent.
I base this on the fact that if there was a concern then I am sure by now someone somewhere, as an employee of your company, would have posted that by now. So far only the management have complained.
If employees of Sonsub choose to send us their rates for inclusion then there is obviously a feeling, by them, that such information should be published openly and not be held as a secret rate!

With rates being published by us it helps the ROV related offshore personnel doing the work see, in no uncertain terms, who is being paid what and gives them some ammunition to approach their management and help level the playing field. After all what information does an employee receive other than that which the management chooses to release?

I assume, by your approach, that you are totally unaware that all divers rates are published annually (from Trainee to Superintendent) no matter who says they agree with it or not. This situation has existed for the best part of 20 years now (to my knowledge).
When I was diving I cannot remember a time when other divers complained that their rates were out in the open for all to see.
I can’t remember the management complaining either.
It simply didn’t happen.
You cannot say that Diver rates are any different than ROV rates from a sensitivity or commercial viewpoint. They do it, and it works to the satisfaction of all concerned, so why can’t we?
I disagree that the information is of a sensitive commercial nature.

KeithR wrote:

What I do have an issue with is when someone unfortunately does not have the integrity to respect their fellow employees condidentiality and makes their dayrates public information without their knowledge or consent.

I’m not sure what you mean here. On the one hand you are saying that you have no problem with your employees posting their own rates on the website, and discussing them, but on the other hand, in effect, you seem to be implying is that you do not want to see that information formatted into a document for all to read.
It seems that you are comfortable with the concept of the information being posted but preferably in the disjointed/random method that individual posts would create. It’s the same information, it has been sent to us by individuals, they have sent it to us to include in the rates page.
All we are really doing here is adding some kind of order to the grey area of ‘ROV Pay rates chaos’.

It does not surprise me that that is what may well be upsetting you (under the guise of terms like.. ‘respect’, ‘confidentiality’, ‘consent’, and earlier… ‘sensitive’ and ‘commercial’) is the fact that you are seeing what you don’t wish your employees to see. A plethora of individual rates complied into an easily readable document of reference. In this format it becomes a little clearer to them that they may not be on such a good deal after all and, until now, you and your management team have been able to keep the balance in your favour.
I cannot imagine any other scenario that would induce someone in upper management, such as yourself, to even end up involved in a debate about this in a Forum such as this.

I think one of the reasons the rates page has been so successful is that any of your employees (no matter what level they may be employed at) sending information to us knows that they do so without even receiving a reply to the email address that they used. In effect the source is protected. So they are protected from management ‘inquiries’.
Whilst members of this website can remain anonymous behind usernames we all know that there are ways to track down who may be behind those names.
In mine or Gina’s case we are not hiding behind any usernames, but certainly respect those that do wish to remain anonymous. It is for this very reason that when information is received by ROVworld.com the source is treated with the utmost confidentiality. Over the years we have built up trust on that score and are not about to let our site members down on that account.

You would be surprised to know who we have received updates from, plus you’d be incorrect if you are assuming that we are receiving rates from the lower echelons of your group who, in turn, are passing to us the rates for the higher echelons.
Nine times out of ten the only rate supplied and published is that of the individual in that given position.
If you had this information it would severely weaken your stance, maybe not view, on this matter.

Lastly, for the moment, I would like you to take a look at the poll and see which way the results are heading. The results are becoming indicative of our view. If the poll indicates it is of more benefit to them to keep the rates page.. it will stay.

[xxx]

Keith

It is my understanding that you do not deal with the personnel side of things, for the last two years in fact. SO I can not help wondering if your intervention on the issue of published pay rates was prompted from higher authority within Siapem?

From what I have heard most of the leavers from Sonsub are due to the atttitude of your replacement in charge of personnel rather than your rates.

[Des_b]

Hi All

Definitely a "YES" to keeping the rates. If anything it provides us all with the ability to chose what we want to do….There is nothing wrong with comparing…

Cheers
😈

[rovsoup]

I personally think that the pay rate info is very useful and could made even better by expanding it with information on what other people in the oil industry are earning.

For example the mud engineer on this rig down in africa is on £425 a day and the rig chief electrician is clearing £4500 a month. (both a lot more than me)

I think we as a trade are all underpaid compared with others in the same industry

[Gina McLauchlan]

Any more comments?

rovsoup,
Not a bad idea, need to see if we can work out a way to incorporate this other information.

Thanks again for everyone’s support

Gina & James

[pipetracker]

Hi everybody,

I vote ‘Yes’ to keeping the rates page. It’s our version of Pricerunner or Kelkoo!!

[Gina McLauchlan]

Any more votes?

Gina

[Scott Beveridge]

TO ALL AND SUNDRY… READ THIS AND TAKE NOTE / CHARGE OF YOUR HOUSE. THIS PARTICULAR THREAD AND REPLY HAS GOT TO BE THE BEST I’VE EVER SEEN ON THIS WEBSITE!! CHEERS JAMES AND GINA!!! HATS OFF TO YOU BOTH. IT’S AKIN TO THE LAST INDEPENDENT (READ: GOOD) US PRESIDENT – TEDDY ROOSEVELT – TAKING ON THE BANKS AND BIG INDUSTRIES. WALK SOFTLY BUT CARRY A BIG STICK.

Keith
It is refreshing to have some more management level members around here whereby they can balance the debate with a management perspective.

(A 4 paragraph space / ommission here) see 7 April James Mc reply. Could’ve ommitted more but it’s all just too good! Scott

The way I see it if companies have even rates across the board then bidding and operating costs become more manageable. Profit targets can be more easily seen and better met. (James, I’ve been saying this for years tho’ it seems to have fallen on deaf ears… This secret society (see 2 or 3 paragraphs down) or lack of transparency on managements part can and will reek of collusion amongst the ROV companies management teams and guess what boys and girls????? The companies DO talk to each other… ,Scott) This fact was not lost on the AODC back in the 1970’s when divers rates became standardised throughout the industry. The AODC didn’t simply agree to standardise rates because it was a nice thing to do for the divers.
But shareholder satisfaction is not the concern of this website.
We operate to help satisfy the needs of our members by passing on what ever information we can, to assist them in gaining as much as they can by way of knowledge or remuneration from their chosen industry.

In the ROVworld the ROV operators (Companies) still like to operate the ‘secret pay rate system’ because they feel it gives the company an advantage over the employees IMHO. I can’t see any other reason.

One thing I fundamentally disagree with is your supposed concern for employees of Sonsub having their rates published without their consent.
I base this on the fact that if there was a concern then I am sure by now someone somewhere, as an employee of your company, would have posted that by now. So far only the management have complained.
If employees of Sonsub choose to send us their rates for inclusion then there is obviously a feeling, by them, that such information should be published openly and not be held as a secret rate!

With rates being published by us it helps the ROV related offshore personnel doing the work see, in no uncertain terms, who is being paid what and gives them some ammunition to approach their management and help level the playing field. After all what information does an employee receive other than that which the management chooses to release?

I assume, by your approach, that you are totally unaware that all divers rates are published annually (from Trainee to Superintendent) no matter who says they agree with it or not. This situation has existed for the best part of 20 years now (to my knowledge).
When I was diving I cannot remember a time when other divers complained that their rates were out in the open for all to see.
I can’t remember the management complaining either.
It simply didn’t happen.
You cannot say that Diver rates are any different than ROV rates from a sensitivity or commercial viewpoint. They do it, and it works to the satisfaction of all concerned, so why can’t we?
I disagree that the information is of a sensitive commercial nature.

KeithR wrote:

What I do have an issue with is when someone unfortunately does not have the integrity to respect their fellow employees condidentiality and makes their dayrates public information without their knowledge or consent.

I’m not sure what you mean here. On the one hand you are saying that you have no problem with your employees posting their own rates on the website, and discussing them, but on the other hand, in effect, you seem to be implying is that you do not want to see that information formatted into a document for all to read.
It seems that you are comfortable with the concept of the information being posted but preferably in the disjointed/random method that individual posts would create. It’s the same information, it has been sent to us by individuals, they have sent it to us to include in the rates page.
All we are really doing here is adding some kind of order to the grey area of ‘ROV Pay rates chaos’.

AND LADIES AND GERMS, THE RATES ARE IN CHAOS!!! JUST LOOK AT THE DISPARITY / GAP ON THE RATES TABLE!!! I’VE "OUT-BLOODY-PRICED MYSELF" MANY TIMES!!! TO FIND OUT LATER THAT SOMEONE FAR LESS QUALIFIED THAN MYSELF WAS HIRED FOR SAY, US $ 20.00 LESS. JUST SEND OUT MORE WARM BODIES PLEASE!!! OH YEAH, AND IT’S SHOWING!! LOOK AT THE STATE OF SOME OF THE ROV EQUIPMENT / SYSTEMS OFFSHORE. MANAGEMENT, BACK OVER TO YOU…. FROM, SCOTT (AND YES FEEL FREE TO SEND ME A PM – I CAN TELL YOU A FEW STORIES / NIGHTMARES)

It does not surprise me that that is what may well be upsetting you (under the guise of terms like.. ‘respect’, ‘confidentiality’, ‘consent’, and earlier… ‘sensitive’ and ‘commercial’) is the fact that you are seeing what you don’t wish your employees to see. A plethora of individual rates complied into an easily readable document of reference. In this format it becomes a little clearer to them that they may not be on such a good deal after all and, until now, you and your management team have been able to keep the balance in your favour.
I cannot imagine any other scenario that would induce someone in upper management, such as yourself, to even end up involved in a debate about this in a Forum such as this.

I think one of the reasons the rates page has been so successful is that any of your employees (no matter what level they may be employed at) sending information to us knows that they do so without even receiving a reply to the email address that they used. In effect the source is protected. So they are protected from management ‘inquiries’.
Whilst members of this website can remain anonymous behind usernames we all know that there are ways to track down who may be behind those names.
In mine or Gina’s case we are not hiding behind any usernames, but certainly respect those that do wish to remain anonymous. It is for this very reason that when information is received by ROVworld.com the source is treated with the utmost confidentiality. Over the years we have built up trust on that score and are not about to let our site members down on that account.

You would be surprised to know who we have received updates from, plus you’d be incorrect if you are assuming that we are receiving rates from the lower echelons of your group who, in turn, are passing to us the rates for the higher echelons.
Nine times out of ten the only rate supplied and published is that of the individual in that given position.
If you had this information it would severely weaken your stance, maybe not view, on this matter.

Lastly, for the moment, I would like you to take a look at the poll and see which way the results are heading. The results are becoming indicative of our view. If the poll indicates it is of more benefit to them to keep the rates page.. it will stay. 🙄

ONCE AGAIN, TO ALL…. READ AND HEED. CHECK THE THREADS THAT HINT ON THE ROV COMPANIES PROFIT AMOUNTS MADE ON WHAT THEY SUCK OUT OF YOUR DAYRATE. YOU’LL GAG AND GO POSTAL!!!

🙄 Happy Hunting! scotbeve

[Andy Shiers]

Thanks James/Gina for an interesting website that , As I have been branded a postaholic , I found helpful in how the ROV industry is progressing. I too agree with the posting of rates.
If the ROV companies were more forth-coming or honest in their approach , We would not have so much ‘bitching on the court’.
The best question when asked………………………
"got a job for ya"
"Great , when do you want me "?
"Tomorrow"
"Door to Door"?
"Weeell, I’ll see and get back to you on that one"
"That’s fine , I’m not interested"
"okay,okay,Door to door"
"What are you offering" ?
"What do you want" ?
"I want the going rate" !
"What’s that then" ?
"Quit F@#king around and tell me what you’re offering or get someone else" !
What it boils down to is this……….
If the ROV companies were more honest then the type of experienced people going out to jobs would be better WITHOUT some Lying C.V.
And the useless planks that freelance would be dropped because people would not want to waste the money getting them out there in the first place. There goes the ‘Bums on seats" syndrome
If you like , Your rates page goes hand in hand with self governing or policing of the ROV Industry. It brings up the standard of professionalism.
I TOTALLY AGREE 😀

[Author]

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