Pay cut due to the economic downturn. Why?

[DJansen]

The breakdown..

3000 Wannabees and Trainees..

400 blokes waiting for work at home.

50 blokes offshore on crap day rates and keepng quiet about it

2 Ops managers rubbing their hands…

😆

[Scott Beveridge]

Like James Mc said, there are 2600 reads and only 54 replies. That speaks volumes to me about the solidarity and the amount of airight jacks around so Scotbeve i would if i were you just chill and laugh at the mugs as you enjoy life and a cool beer.

De-mob,
MY days of laughing are gone… now is the days of constant drooling and lots of mumbling to myself. I occasionally check myself into the psyche ward and get myself an MRI to see the ever-depleting grey matter.

JB,

I guess you’ll remember the days where we were to "micro-mange" our "own" systems (yes, I know, I don’t like those terms either) by the upper orifice wallies… We didn’t have: proj. mis-manangers, tech. support, etc. etc. Job creation and less getting done efficiently… Those days, I believe, were a bit tighter as far as the work teams were concerned…. Mind you, a lot less people in the industry as well. Eg; there were…. 2 count them…2 ROV guys in Oz in 1982. My point is, yes, there is NO solidarity in this industry… Agreed 100%.

So… to stay on topic… a quick sum of the above posts, we have: GREED on the top of the list, zero solidarity, too many guys in the industry, and a lot of inefficiency.

I’m counting my days left…..

[turtle]

If anyone is willing to pay rate for experience, please pm here

[rovnumpty]

I think the point JB is trying to make is the same as the one I put forward in the onion thread last year.

There should be no comparison with the divers. In what way is the ROv industry like the dive industry other than they both deal with work underwater?

Divers work in a physically demanding and very dangerous enviroment. What we do is technically demanding and very much knowledge based.

Divers need variuos specialist courses and tickets to be allowed into a sat chamber. ROv dudes need to be able to walk upright (mostly) to be allowed onto an ROV spread.

Their uni0inisation worked because the companies couldn’t turn around and replace anyone in the onion with some bod striaght out of the dole que. Uni0nisation of the rov industry wouldn’t work because 6 rov wannabees can be found in about 15 seconds.

So lets drop all this comparison with the divers. It’s like comparing us the drilling industry. Completey irrelevant.

[DJansen]

The only reason they are able to ‘replace’ guys with newer cheaper numpties straight out of the box.. Is because we have been daft enough to train them.. I agree the industry needs trainees but not at the expense of experienced hands.. They should be out as a 4th man and not misrepresented by the office as an experienced P/T so they can skim the dayrate. All of us have had to cover for these guys.. fixing and flying the sub for extended hours and keeping quiet about their lack of ability.
It’s fine when the new guy is keen, smart and a quick learner.. Unfortunately they seem to be few and far between.. Now there are too many apathetic and surly know-it-alls getting offshore.. Keen to work for cheap and keen to get up the bosses arse to keep their job..

Running them off used to be the norm if they didn’t pull their weight or fit it.. When was the last time you heard of a newbie being R/O or NRB’d recently ? It never happens now the office tells you stop whinging and put up with it..

They value these blokes more than their experienced core… Be interesting to see how well they’d do if the exp guys stopped covering for them and let them wreck havoc with the gear…

[De-mob]

The diving comparison is relevent if you compare your rates.
LSS, LST, ROV and stby diver Rates were very close in the 80s and divers were queing up to get into Sat where the big money was. Point is, diving declined and Rov demand grew but the rates didn’t Why? Maybe you experts can answer that one. Lacking Solidarity, uni0n?????

Most drilling crew or diving crew can be recruited easier than finding a good technical bod for Rov’s.
Last i heard, was that an LST course was 6 weeks with no technical quals required, Diving also a short course?? where as a mechanical or electronic HNC or degree is 3 years graft, an apprentiship 3-4 years. Yes i agree that diving is dangerous but they are rewarded well when in the bin for the danger…still i wouldn’t do it. The plot has been lost here though. The point was, and it doesn’t matter if you use diving, drilling or scaffolding rates. The rov rates are crap in comparison and so is the attitude from the desk fliers towards the people doing the job.

Considering you are supposed to be a technically qualified group of people, I think that a lot of guys out there have killed the job by accepting any shite over the years and being alright jacks.

Carry on boys accepting jobs in dodgy places and on dodgy vessels with dodgy food for the rates you are offered by dodgy ops managers if it’s acceptable to you, because as the replies prove, you will never be united behind a uni0n to sort the conditions out.

LET THE SUPPOSED RECESSION TAKE IT’S TOLL ON RATES! no one seems to mind.

[Kalbo]

For the sake of around 15 GBP a month we can all afford to join the union!!! Join up below….

http:/www.rmt.org.uk

http:/www.oilc.org

[Paul Bond]

Thought i had better up the percentage of views to comments, so here goes:-
I agree with ROVnumpty – ROV and divers are totally different cases. Divers have to do an industry recognised course to work and our trainees have to just be in the right place at the right time. If they have completed 6 mins on the sticks somewhere and come with an IMCA recognised cert then all the better, as far as the offices are concerned, as they can then show the client that their workforce is competent! (rightly or wrongly!)
I have been working with ROVs for 13 years now, with both fruitful and barren times – it is to be expected as everything in this life is cyclical – fashion, politics, music and yes, economics. Companies are always ‘improving efficiency’ and ‘trimming costs’ – this is nothing new.
As for onion membership, i think it is a personal choice and no one should feel ‘bullied’ into leaning one way or the other. I have done less work this year so far than recently but my rates have been good, so no complaints from me….. at the moment lol.

[liddelljohn]

£15 is that all? I spoke to someone in the RMT office last December and they told me it was £120.

[Kalbo]

£15 is that all? I spoke to someone in the RMT office last December and they told me it was £120.

Sorry I should have said its around £15 a month. I’ve edited the original post now.

[Andy Shiers]

Why not just say £180:00 a year or is that just salesman talk ?
That’s my gripe 👿
I pay enough fees EVERY year with some justification for it thankyou very much without having to pay an additional ( nearly £200:00 ) for a monthly or yearly news letter telling me that " The ball is in motion " 😕
Unless of course if you are not happy with it you can pull out at any time say after six months or even the third month.
Or can you pay for half a year whilst working .
£90:00 or £100:00 a year sounds quite reasonable £180:00 a year seems alot . It’s more than my Personnal insurance premium and I get quite a bit back if I use it.
Do I regret not joining before ………………………… Nope !
Would I join in the future ……………………… Possibly !
But there has to be a damm sight better policy set out that will assist than just " We are a Uni0n " 😯
I want to know what the constitution is in big letters and know we haven’t got another Bulls-up PDA 😯

[Salona]

The breakdown..

3000 Wannabees and Trainees..

400 blokes waiting for work at home.

50 blokes offshore on crap day rates and keepng quiet about it

2 Ops managers rubbing their hands…

The ROV industry is no different from any other industry. ie, experienced guys train the newbies, once the newbies become experienced they in turn train the newbies and so on.
What’s with all the constant winging regarding trainees on this forum? weren’t we all trainees once?
The reason so many experienced guys are sitting at home is that they hold the ROV companies at ransom over day rates during peak periods and as a result guess who is last to get work during the not so busy times?
As with all the Yunion talk, I personally believe that we are all in charge of our own destiny and if you’re not happy with what you’ve got then get another job. Remember all the miners who joined the Yunions and went on strike every 5 minutes, where are they now??

Rant over 😆

[DJansen]

As I said in my post.. We need trainees.. But in a decent ratio to experienced guys.. The old Supv and two trainees business is a very dificult situation to manage and unsafe as well.. Before the trainees started slowly on simple contracts like basic drill support. The gained piloting time and learnt the vehicle and system.. After a year or more they became a P/T.. And they stayed one for 5-6 years (or more) until they became a Supv.. Or Senior PT if they didn’t lke Supervising.
There wasn’t a dozen different grades.. You were either a trainee, a tech or a Supv. Now guys are obsessed with their grade (tied to their dayrate) and just want to get their compentancy signed off ASAP so they can put in for a rise.. HTF can you have Pilot tech 1’s and 2’s that can’t fly the sub ? ( a few sub eng’s too) They have only been on one type of vessel and done one type of work.. Been in the game three years and expect to be a Supv anytime soon..

That’s crazy.. ! Before a Supv was expected to have done Mobs/demobs, free flyers, TMS Subs, Barges, Semi-Subs, DSV’s, Small work boats and had experience in various water depths and vis conditions.. He was meant to have a broard experience with all the different facets of the industry.. Now a couple of years doing 4/4 on the same boat with the same sub in the same conditions is classed as ‘experience’ ….What a joke ! It’s all getting easier as the subs aren’t as dificult to operate now and the engineering is simpler.. The companies are pushing hard to get to their goal of ROV no longer being seen as a difficult job.. they want to demystify it and make it the same as a factory job.. few hour of ‘on the job training’ and any bod with a tech cert can have a go…. with the relevant drop in dayrate of course.. Another few years and ROVing will end up being done by Phillipinos, Latvians, Polish and blokes from the Congo.. No different from the catering and cleaning jobs onboard…

[Andy Shiers]

Salona , what you say is bollocks ! 😯
People who freelance make a living on the oil companies work Mainly in the seasonal areas of the world , The Industry is still relatively small but is also unique meaning there is fewer people than say the building industry !
If you freelance there is aways a chance that the demand will go up "In season" but it also means the rates drop when there is less work.
This has ALWAYS been the case !
What has completley screwed it up this time is the amount of "Greenhorns" that have decided going freelance without the experience but wanting the "supposedly" ‘Loads-a-Dosh’ plus the training schools around the world promising such a fantastic life 😯 ….Flooding the market and making life difficult for everyone !
The rates are still there for anyone of experience and reputation ,
And before you say " You were a trainee once , Give them slack ! "
I was and I also had an apprenticeship and I was on salary 8)
Which is the CORRECT way to learn a trade 😯

[James McLauchlan]

…………….Remember all the miners who joined the Yunions and went on strike every 5 minutes, where are they now??………….

Bangs head on table…. once, twice, three times….

Remember all the North Sea divers that joined a uni0n and went on strike once or twice?
Where are they now??

Remember all the Oz ROV guys n gals that joined a uni0n?
Where are they now??

Remember all the Norwegian ROV guys n gals that joined a uni0n?
Where are they now??

It’s nothing to do with strikes…. it’s to do with collective bargaining for justifiable pay and conditions. Those that utter StrikeStrike as soon that they hear or read the word uni0n would be better going it alone anyway IMHO, but I will point out, because I have seen it first hand… often they are the first to accept the better pay and conditions fought for by those that did join together, whilst they sat on the sidelines.

Collective bargaining is something Police, Fore Brigade, Politicians, and countries do all the time. People need to get away from this idea of Uni0n means striking every 5 minutes That’s old style stuff from when?? 70s?? 30-40 years back?? Lets talk about this Century eh?
You tell me how many times the dives have gone on strike on the North sea since say 1985?? If my memory serves me correctly, a partial strike (which didn’t amount to much because a lot of individuals buckled or cut their own deals), and much much later an all out (successful) strike after the companies refused to agree to reasonable terms and conditions.

So to counter this every 5 minutes point.. I’m suggesting that a strike once every 15 years might be more like it.

I feel that the reason people are taking pay cuts, loss of west Africa allowance and loss of being paid door to door, is because they think it is still better to go it alone. The case for doing so is very weak when you see more success in this collective bargaining than failure.

This thread was started to discuss why pay cuts are being forced on the game…. going it alone, and acting as a weak loosely connected group of individuals is exactly why.

So…… take your pay cut, go to work, bitch about it in the shack away from the rest of the ships crew (especially the divers if the are onboard in case they take the piss out of you all trip), take less money home and just say ho! hum! that’s how it is now, and that’s how it always will be. Sounds like a plan.

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