Unions

[Bacaruda]

Don’t know if you guys are aware of the possible divers strike in the North Sea. But I see they are all in the RMT, when i visited their site I found that all the ROV companies were listed on their application form. Are any of you ROV guys out their in the RMT ? .

https://secure.rmt.org.uk/rmt-bin/viewer?templatename=join_rail.wm&action=joinone

[nigeld]

On advise I joined Amicus! don’t know if it was a good decision as yet, I havn’t really come across many guys in unions!

[rovnumpty]

Bacaruda

I used to be in the RMT

My advice – don’t join them!

I had some trouble with one of the ROV companies a few years ago (start with ‘O’, end in ‘ing’ and have ‘ceaneer’ in the middle).

Had the problem taken to an industrial tribunal, then couldn’t find anyone at the RMT who would attend with me. They were very short on the advice front as well.

I’d been a member for a couple of years when the trouble started. contacted the aberdeen branch (you’d assume they’d be responsible for the oil industry!?) only to be told they dealt with railways only – had to contact the newcastle branch as that was maritime. Spoke to someone there who was at least helpful, but he said I had to speak to a specific member who represented the diving side of things. He lived in bath, and had no intention of heading for aberdeen for something as paltry as my problem.

Guess an all strike by the divers would be enough to get him on that plane!

If you want to join a union, I’d go for numast. They only deal with the marine industry, and at least show some interest.

Anyone else got any stories?

[Ray Shields]

As I posted on the other message, I do not think RMT is a suitable union for ROVvers. We are not marine, we are not train drivers and we aint divers!

We are, in general, engineers or engineering. I am a member of Amicus, they are an engineering union and also have a fairly high presense offshore.

They have an office in Aberdeen, are well versed in offshore and were very helpful to me when I went to them for advice over dealing with Norwegian tax (or should I say how my company were badly dealing with it)

[Andy Shiers]

I like the term Subsea engineer
Ya certainly don’t have to explain all the time about what an ROV pilot is on forms 😕
Unless of coarse it’s at a formal diner table or chatting up some trout ! 😆

[farq30]

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the diver pay claim dispute. I used to work for a large aberdeen based engineering firm and we were in dispute about wages. We took them to a final ballot for industrial action until people realised they weren’t going to get paid.They all crapped out so the company got their way in the end. As the full time official said at the time, the union is only as strong as its members. So people looking to the diver dispute and thinking if all rov guys join a union for big pay rises beware! There are always people who will look after themselves before looking at the bigger picture!! Saying that the union i was in (amicus) were helpful with other matters other than bargaining for monetary gains! If the rov industry was to be unionised the best way is to have all members in one union rather than individuals spread around several.Something about strength in numbers!

[James McLauchlan]

Unions

First off I will repeat information posted on the front page news so that it doesn’t end up buried by subsequent news articles.

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Posted on Friday 22nd Sep 2006

A Pay row between North Sea divers and their employers has reached a standoff, a union official said yesterday.

Rail Maritime and Transport Union (RMT) regional organiser Stan Herschel was speaking after talks in Aberdeen yesterday failed to achieve a compromise.

The divers had threatened to go on strike from November 1 following their recent ballot on industrial action.

Employers subsequently offered a new three-year deal based on an increase of 7% for the first year, 4% for year two and 4% for year three.

But that was flatly rejected and union officials had hoped for a better offer yesterday.

Mr Herschel said none was forthcoming. He added: “The November deadline still remains, but I am hopeful they (the employers) will still come back with an improved offer.”

Colin Gibson, of Aberdeenshire-based Subsea 7, who chairs the joint employers’ and RMT committee that discusses pay and conditions, could not be contacted for comment.

It has been claimed that a strike involving up to 800 divers could severely disrupt North Sea oil and gas production.

According to the RMT, divers’ pay has risen by 20% less than average earnings over the past 20 years and it is claiming a 50% increase to recover lost ground.

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As mentioned in a previous post. Unions are only as strong as their members and as a whole ROV personnel have about as much backbone in standing up for their rights (needs?) as Divers do. I estimate that to be very little.

There is every chance that the Diver strike thing will come to very little also, as the companies drag it out with the season drawing to a close and the divers see their pay packet dwindling.
Who the hell thought that threatening strike action at this time of the year was going to have any clout?
June July maybe… November?? Way off the mark I reckon.
I seem to remember this kind of timing in the ROV industry years ago… it didn’t work then, it won’t work now and it looks like nothing was learned on the timing front or has been learned in the last 20 years!!

I am prepared to eat my words though, and will smile inwardly if there is a positive result.

On an individual level unions can sometimes help out.. like in Ray’s example over tax. But as a collective ROV pay bargaining tool… I think not. It’s all to do with the type of beast we all are.

I have stood my ground in the past.
I have turned low paid work down and I have said no as and when I felt I was being ripped off, or there was the potential looming to be ripped off.
I have stopped work on safety grounds even at the threat of losing my job (and potentially my life) at the time. (The ‘job must go on pressure´ is another subject and not part of this discussion so I will let that one rest for the moment.)
Equally I have sometimes carried out what are deemed as unsafe acts to get the job done. I have taken jobs that I felt were under paid because I was short of cash and needed to pay the bills, pay the mortgage (don’t have one now) and feed the kids, (none of those now either).
So we have all been there one time or another.

In the meantime, whilst you are mulling of that, sit back and think …

How many times have you turned work down because the pay was not quite high enough??
Would you do it now?

How many times have you refused to do something that you felt was unsafe?

How many times have you carried out an unsafe act under pressure of getting the job done or being run off?
If so, would you do it again?

How many times have you carried out an unsafe act, or allowed an unsafe act to be carried out, just to take the easy route and let the pressure fall on someone else?
Not me, not to let the pressure fall on someone else, but I saw that happen on my last job!!

Some of those questions may well hit too close to home for some people, in that they know they would probably cave if the pressure came on during a strike situation.
Whilst some of you are no doubt squirming in self guilt, now consider how good you would be as a union member should you be called to stand your ground now matter how much pressure the companies were putting on.

A few months without pay. Do you have a family and mortgage? How well would that go down with the bank and the wife?
If it was found out that you stood your ground or showed up in any way as one of the stronger so called ‘ring leaders’, how would you feel when suddenly the company ran out of jobs for you?
So there you are.. been off pay for a couple of months, running out of money, works prospects even worse as a result of the strike because it was called near the end of the season! Feeling good about it?

How well would you do under the typical strike breaking method of being singled out by a company representative and being told that you will never work offshore in ROV’s again and they will do all in their power to ensure that will happen?

Or the other method of offering you promotion if you will go back to work right away?

Until we (all us individuals out there) operate more in Union (collectively for a common cause) the word Union is meaningless in the offshore ROVworld.

I don’t think I am being to harsh because I can’t recollect the last time that ROV personnel stood up against the management and got their way in the end. I have heard lots of moaning. I have seen the odd individual clash with the management but never have I seen guys band together and stand up against the office authority as a group. There are, and always will be, a few individuals that stand off to one side sit on the fence (Company men, for want for a better expression). We seem to have more than our fair share of them in this game. They are also the first to give up, shrug their shoulders and head off back to work. The companies love them!! When you have that going on that there is no Union in the true sense of the word.

Here is a classic example of the fence sitter group which I experience first hand.

When I was diving we had just found out that the company was trying to pay us mobilisation pay only, until the system was fully mobbed.. 7 days or so. How did we find out? One of the company yes men happened to mention the fact about three days into the mob. It turns out that he knew all along but went offshore anyway without even questioning it.
Whilst all hell let loose a few of the types (mentioned above) stood on the sidelines. They would not say anything whilst the dispute was going on over pay. We were offshore at the time, on a Total installation. The Seaman’s Union (later RMT) got involved, but were almost useless.
One or two people lost future work over it. One or two came close to being run off. Total became involved.
The company said ‘Why didn’t you approach us as individuals first to voice your complaints’. I could really see the writing on the wall there!!
The money was hard fought by a dedicated solid few with the rest offering support, and eventually paid, but the fence sitters happily took the money too. No worry to them. They watched all the hassle. Watched people taking flak, sat on the sidelines looking nice as pie, offered no support at all, and walked away better off for it.

Anyway.. I have things to do but thought I might fire up things a bit in the meantime 😉

[Andy Shiers]

I’ll join you union James 😆

[Andy Shiers]

As for doing anything unsafe ! I don’t , which has either caused me to be run off ! , but not out of work as the ROV company involved backed me up !
Or through diplomatic means the client has seen my point of view and another way was found.
I do not leave my house unless the rate (which includes mobbing ) and Flights are to my agreement !
I involve the whole crew in discussions about situations and I am no tyrant ( not like some people I know when it goes to their head ! )
Rightly or wrongly I’m known for what I can do so , so far , I have not been out of work !
Apart from when I was well and truly stiched up by a certain Dutch oufit that buggered me good and proper when I signed a dayrate contract ! 👿
Happy hunting ROV pickers

[piedpiper]

I agree with James, who in their infinite wisdom organised this divers strike for the 1st November ? Obviously somebody who knows a lot about train drivers………….stick to trains boys………..The companys must be pissing themselves.

I’d like to see the divers stand together, but I don’t think it will happen at this time of year, I think they have been badly advised. But I wish them luck in getting a better offer, just stop dreaming about 50% though lads.

Piedpiper

[Andy Shiers]

I think you will find the 50 % is the start , as in Bartering !
If they get 25 % they will be happy.
The reason for this at this time of year is to see the result without upsetting the Industry.
IF The payrise does not happen then the Oil companies I think will have a big problem next year !
Perhaps another strike just when they go ahead with some big project will set the Oil company back a little more than just a few pennies out of their VAST profit coffers Better wake up to what the divers are asking right now !

[AlanPottageRMT]

RECENT RMT DISPUTE

Regards uni0n tactics in the recent Divers & Support staff dispute. All I can say is that we listened to our members. They decided on the timing and they decided on the claim. Ultimately, they decided when an offer was eventually suitable to accept and they decided when to call off the dispute.

Not sure if the companies are ‘pissing themselves’ but they certainly are taking RMT members more seriously now than they were prior to November.

We’re determined to help build proper sustainable uni0n organisation for all subsea/offshore workers. Your collective strength is key. Without that then we are limited to what we can do and members will not get the full benefits.

I’ve posted more information on the thread ‘ROV UNI0N’ but hope this also helps.

Cheers,

Alan Pottage
RMT Union

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