Who trains the Instructors !

[Scott Beveridge]

Scot,

After an exhaustive interview via PM 😉 your’e in dude. How would you like to pay? Cash, or bankers draft made out to Robin Gits 😀

Gollllly Sarge! Shucks, if that ain’t the bees knees!!!! Here ya’ go… just take my credit card details!!!!!!!

[tc1]

People who are learning to be an aircraft pilot pilot are taught many things from many instructors.It does not always follow that the instructor on a particular aspect need be a flyer himself.Take hydraulics for instance ,there are many teachers of hydraulics in the world most of whom have no knowledege of ROVs.Should they not be part of the learning potential for would be pilot /techs.Going onto the electrical side of things the same follows as is computer skills.Dont have a shallow view lostboy and I mean this as no critisizm but be aware you could turn out a decent knowledgable tech from sources outwith the ROV industry and as for the piloting I think you said it somewhere yourself that if your good withj an xbox etc…………

Scotty yes you are right it does follow on much further however the question asked at the beginning was who instructs the instructors and personally I think there is already enough diversification away from the thread so I dont fancy starting another one about how to instuct bud.See Ya

[Andy Shiers]

Okay , the question ……..
Who Instructs the ROV pilot Instructors ?
That does not mean , Which University taught the Hydraulics engineer or the Electornics electrician , But the ROV pilot ?

[tc1]

would I competant to do basic things if I was taught for ten or twenty hours how to work an xbox bud even flying pilots spend a while in simulators before getting behind the sticks of an aircraft.Some people learn skills quicker than others so really does it need an instructor with 20year offshore experience to be able to pass skills to a bright student or could that bright student be a natural flyer and be excellent in a few years.Bear in mind also that having 20yrs experience does not automatically make you a good instructor.To be an instructor you must first and foremost learn to teach.Do you know of many 20yr service offshore guys qualified to teach.So there fore in my view I say again that there is no reason that a student could not become an acceptable worker from instructors outwith the ROV community.

[Andy Shiers]

Which leads to the main subject again doesn’t it 😀
You don’t need a sodding ROV pilots School to teach people how to become ROV pilots ! Do you ?
You learn by on hand experience by experienced personnel ………..
OFFSHORE , ON THE JOB , DOING THE JOB and have an apprenticeship 😀
😉

[Andy Shiers]

In other words get your qualifications at College for basic Electronic /Electrical and Hydraulic then go to a company and ask for a job . The basic qualifications will help you find other occupations if pou find that the ROV industry is not for you or you are not right for the industry 🙂

[Andy Shiers]

Speaking as an experienced Rover of over twenty years of course 😯

[tc1]

A simple answer I suppose is that the people who instruct the instructors are the qualified teaching instructors who teach the instructors to teach.The qualified instructor now has the ability to take a series of points and pass whatever information the powers that be wish to be transformed from their ideas to the instructors mouth to the trainees head.Having 20 plus years in an industry does not automatically make anyone a teacher except perhaps teaching.An instructor is an instructor and an electrician is an electrician

[tc1]

Same goes that an assessor is an assessor and an instructor is an instructor the two may mix or not dependant on the person. 😀

[Andy Shiers]

Rayshields quoted .

No-one. The same way as IMCA does not certify anyone, Instructors do not have IMCA stamps.

IMCA is their own worst enemy. IMCA are a trade organisation – a bunch of companies who got together and thought "lets see if we can come up with standards between ourselves". There is nothing official (goverment, legal or whatever) about them.

Even companies that ARE members of IMCA do not always follow their own standards (e.g. IMCA has 2 grades of Pilot Tech,1 & 2 – how many IMCA member companies have 3,4, even 7!)

They have written a set of (in my opinion VERY low) standards. Schools teach based on these standards, but that does not make anyone taught to these standards "IMCA certified"

As with most other teaching or instructors, if a person gets some teaching qualifications (NVQ A1 Assessor, V1 Verifier etc. in the UK) plus has a suitable background/experience for the knowledge and has a criteria to teach against, then it is reasonable to say they can be an instructor for that particular subject. This is along the same lines as any other company that offers training to the industry.

However these companies teach using criteria which is much more exacting (Manual Handling, COSHH, DP Operator, any other well known NVQ qualification), ROV schools teach against the INCA standard.

Lets take an example of the IMCA standard. Many schools issue a piece of paper that you have met the competencys of IMCA Pilot Tech 2. What do you need to have done for that (a small sample):-

Assist with electrical and mechanical umbilical reterminations, including fibre optic cables.
Test, maintain and operate video systems and lights.

Hwo do the schools demonstrate their competence of this. Change one light bulb, stick a crimp on the end of a cable, press a button on a megger, vatch a VIDEO of someone else terminating a fibre optic connector?

At very best, they should be told they are now TRAINEE Pilot Techs.

Also it continues when you start offshore. Are ALL Supervisors who sign off competency books competent. Have they all done D32 (old standard) or A1 Assessor courses?

Aagh yes but the question still remains , dosen’t it ?
Are they competant enough to teach "Greenhorns" what is the correct way or the wrong way of ROV skills ?
Did you go through an ROV Pilots school to learn your flying skills tc1 😉
How does a governing body , like IMCA issue the ROV PILOTS INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE ?
Is there a school to teach teachers ?
If you wish to be a driving instructor , do you not go to a driving instructors school for advanced driving skills ?
The worst scenerio is a load of lads in a lecture room finding out that the lecturer , infact has no offshore experience at all but learn’t all knows via a flight simulator a couple of years previously 😯
You learn more from someone when there is respect involved I be thinking 😕
Would you say , if you had been through a ROV Pilots school that you are now competant to fly , say ,………medium workclass vehicles such as SEAEYE Panther plus without damaging it ?
Did you learn such skills in a school taught by a qualified Instructor or did the person doing the flying just Bullsh#t his way into the job and then learnt as he went along ?
I think that I personally am experienced and old enough to give a non biased opinion on assessing as an assessor. I can , If asked , because someone respects my point of view by asking me in the first place 🙄 say whether the assessed is Useless , coming along , needs to work on people skills ( Part of the team ) , Messy , Eager or to NRB him because he has the wrong attitude on the contract .
One thing I cannot do is issue a certificate to say he is a competant Pilot or a fantastic Engineer ! He may have qualifications to say he is an electrician or a hydraulics expert but to say he is a competant pilot ? Can he be left alone on the sticks while you are in the workshop or having supper ?
The main reason why he is out there is because either he is a trainee (Apprentice) and someone in the orifice more qualified than me has decided to give him a break because he has potential at the interview or he Bullsh#tted his way on board claiming to know something he does not 😯
After the ROV has been damaged ( due to bad flying ) That said person would get a reputaion as a bad pilot , ( Not because he was a trainee , as you are lenient with trainees as he is learning and willing to listen )
An instructor in a school canna give you that feed back , Can he ?

[Ray Shields]

How does a governing body , like IMCA issue the ROV PILOTS INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE ?

Simple – they don’t.

IMCA is NOT a governing body! They are a Trade Organisation. A bunch of companies got together to make a Big Boys Club and write a standard for different job titles.

That’s it. They are not responsible for anything, except for not chasing down people and places that use their name to justify some course to make it sound official when it is not.

NVQs, SVQs, HNCs, City & Guilds, Degrees, THEY are all official recognised by sGoverning Body standards.

ANY ROV Pilot piece of paper is not.

[Andy Shiers]

Is there any point in doing the course then Ray ? 😀

[Scott Beveridge]

Lost,

You know the answer to that… a large emphatic NO.

[tc1]

😀 Lest we forget that IMCA is responsable to the good old HSE who are responsable to the UK government.IMCA like the old AODC have responded to the UK HSE and have done their best or the best we are gonna get for a while.Our industry is evolving at a rapid pace.Im not saying I agree with everything they do but like the AODC before them,they have had their place in the industry.IMCA is just the current body as Im sure no matter how long they last will be followed by another who hopefully will be laughing at us at the way we do things now. Is there an alternative or is it just having seen an industry over a long period of time you have more in your head to think back on.Let the young stars see where they can take it in the future 20 years. 😀

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