Agency day rates.

[Scott Beveridge]

Ahhh… in my world of what should be…. The I’s, me’s and mine’s are asking for a minimum pay increase of 2 – 5 % EVERY time they are called by some orifice wallie. Pigs bloody fly as well. Zero solidarity = I’m awright Jack giturhansoffamystack… This is huMAN natURE. Unfortunately, I can see that it’s only gonna get worse / competitive…. I guess more time off is at hand – so be it!!!

[TEAMJBR]

I read all the posts regulary and I am in the Onion too but I see that no one has broached the thorny issue of world wide Policing of the desperate

under cutters
Locals
Poor Rovers (All disciplines)
Salary
etc

That will not want to be queued up with the other 30+ for that particular post.

If your a Supervisor like me you need a list of people circumventing the Uniyon, fighting against the office blokes mate and real secret liars who say they are out on the correct rate.
Will we be able or have the power to do any of this or have the relevant info to hand and do this world wide???

I forsee a long road of real recrimination and retribution too!!!

[Scott Beveridge]

TeamJBR,

As for people circumventing, we need a few of us to stand up (within the borders of the UK + Europe(?)) and take note(s) – sorry I can’t / won’t move there….

Like previously stated, let the YUni0n sort out people’s back yard first – the N.Sea and as with the divers plight, it will (not too soon) trickle down to us folks in the sunnier regions.

[James McLauchlan]

Like previously stated, let the YUni0n sort out people’s back yard first – the N.Sea and as with the divers plight, it will (not too soon) trickle down to us folks in the sunnier regions.

Agreed.

I forsee a long road of real recrimination and retribution too!!!

The diving Co’s tried to screw the divers along the way by many devious means. They wanted names of Uni0n members, names of organisers offshore and tried to shut them down, they tried to make back door agreements with the weaker/more vulnerable elements of the offshore teams but in the end the lads convinced the disbelievers and fence sitters offshore to come across and stand as a solid group. Now you will most likely find (in the North Sea – UK sector) that if you are not in the divers uni0n but receiving all the benefits (the Uni0n negotiated industry agreement has brought about) you will be probably be asked why you are freeloading.

Once, as a diver, I remember discussions about pay when the company were not paying uni0n agreed rates for a rather long mobilisation that was taking place offshore. The co blue-eyed boys said nothing, but the ini0n was brought up to speed on things all the same. When the uni0n intervened and sorted out the money for their members those very same/lame people took the cash (negotiated for them by a uni0n that they were not a member of) without a second thought. It’s people like that that are the weak link and they are the ones that need to be convinced that standing together is the way forward and standing as weak self centred individuals is most definitely not.

The divers overcame their concern about recrimination and retribution and forged ahead. It took years but they got there in the end and so can the ROV side of the industry, but not as people standing alone. It can only be achieved as a group under some kind of organisation. In the total absence of any other uni0n prepared to act on behalf of ROV the RMT is the best option. It’s not about strikes and brother this and that. It’s about negotiating fair pay and conditions by the introduction of an ROV industry agreement. This will set a standard that the companies have agreed to adhere to ss they have done with the divers. The RMT has plenty of experience in carrying out these negotiations because it is the same people involved that were heavily involved with the divers industry agreement – past and present negotiations.

For too long there has been no cohesive action in the ROV game in the meantime. Whilst the ROV crews offshore may be wondering why rates are so average, the companies onshore are raking in massive profits. Soon they will be announcing how well they have done and how pleased their shareholders should be.

To be fair you may be able to say your rate has gone up a bit, but in no way will it match the percentile increase in profits the company you work for will be looking forward to. You are the one at the sharp end making that money for them and yet they are not overly keen to share the proceeds with you, much to the glee of their shareholders.

Will you be able to turn to your Mrs and say to her ‘Wow!… in the last 12 months my income has shot through the roof on par with the profits made by the company I work for’?

[Scott Beveridge]

Quote from JamesMc:

For too long there has been no cohesive action in the ROV game in the meantime. Whilst the ROV crews offshore may be wondering why rates are so average, the companies onshore are raking in massive profits. Soon they will be announcing how well they have done and how pleased their shareholders should be.

To be fair you may be able to say your rate has gone up a bit, but in no way will it match the percentile increase in profits the company you work for will be looking forward to. You are the one at the sharp end making that money for them and yet they are not overly keen to share the proceeds with you, much to the glee of their shareholders.

Recrimination has been around for some time now for ROV guys / gals in regards to this subject… In fact, I’ve been turned down a (lucrative) job (you know who you are and how illegal it is in your own country – still have the emails by the way) after being forthcoming & pointing out my views of Uni0ns within our industry. This is going to be fun! Any other close-to-retirement ROVers wanna play???

[CheckoffsUglyRumor]

Finished a job earlier this summer where the "client" wouldn’t stump up for a 3.4U and reckoned it was cheaper to train one of their subsea engineer reps to use Visualsoft for the 3 days of inspection – what a cockup he made of this…started bleating that the 2nd pilot should do it while he watched, so we scotched that immediately.

Anyways, it turns out this oxygen thief was on £850 a day, and he reckoned his pay had doubled in just 3 years as a subsea engineer. I just wonder where we’re going wrong with our day rates when it seems some parts of the industry get paid film star wages for very little contribution to the job. But I suppose with the latest dive in oil prices, now isn’t the right time to push too hard.

[James McLauchlan]

But I suppose with the latest dive in oil prices, now isn’t the right time to push too hard.

Wow!.. when the barrel was high nobody was pushing too hard and rates weren’t going up too much, now the price of a barrel is dropping it is being suggested that it may not be a good idea to push too hard. So please tell me when is the right time?

The divers have it sorted. They have an agreement that is not based on the price of a barrel of oil. They are sitting pretty because they got together and sorted out a Diving Industry agreement. How much longer do the offshore ROV guys want to run with not having an ROV industry agreement in place? Join the RMT, as the divers did, and get this sorted … or keep asking questions as per CheckoffsUglyRumor’s post.

It’s not that hard to work out is it?

best regards
James Mc
RMT member

[luckyjim37]

Ray is right when he says staff employees get holiday pay entitlements and I also agree there is not the same for agency and day rate staff.

I as an agency worker would like to point out though that you do not really need holiday pay as you can take time off when you want and from what I have seen over the past few years an agency workers day rate is slightly though not massively higher than that of a staff day rater.

When it comes to this big day rate question there is one point which has not been discussed. Maybe some staff are just happy with the dayrate the agencies are paying.

Currently I earn just enough working as a ltd company to sit beneath the vat threshold which is for half a years work quite a lot of money by any standards.

Any huge jump in pay would therefore lead to more hassle with paperwork and accountancy charges and more dealings with our friends at the HMRC.

Then there is the problem of foreign workers. They are paid less on average and work harder in a lot of cases than some of the British workforce.

Any amount of Uni0n pressure is not going to stop companies employing foreign workers for less. Even if they only work on jobs outside of the UK that is still a massive amount of work which we will all lose out on to cheaper and equally capable labour.

The reality as I see it is even with an agreement in place it could only be enforced in the North sea anyway. Cheaper labour is available from other countries South Africa, Brazil, etc. I have always been led to believe that most of a companies profit is on its personnel anyway so they have no reason to dramatically raise rates.

Also as pointed out somewhere on the site most agency workers would not count in any Uni0n led negotiations on pay with companies.

There should be standard rates accross the board for each level it would mean companies would have to find other ways to retain staff i.e. better conditions etc but what scares me is that everyone will be expecting a huge payrise through this industry type agreement and if it happens all that will happen is during the next downturn British pilots will have priced themselves out of the market.

As for the argument about undercutting each other if an agency offers a rate and will not put it up for you the choice is take the job or not pay your mortgage and that is not falling foul of the banking system. My outgoings are not huge and I have savings but why use them if there is a job offer on the table.

I still think the industry as a whole is well paid and from speaking to other people I know they feel the same. I am not saying everyone is happy but what action they take is up to them.

It is not sitting on the fence to be happy with your day rate, agency/company and conditions just as it not wrong to do nothing if you do feel there needs to be a massive agreement.

I am concerned that there may be a lot of guys who feel obliged to enter into this who do not really want to. The very same concerns I have raised before when mentioning Uni0ns.

[KeyserSoze]

I can’t for the life of me see what the hesitation is among some.

The Norwegians managed to get sorted years ago and recently the Aussies have done the same.

OK you will always have areas where labour is cheaper and the rates will be less, but we could see these areas dwindle as agreements are negotiated in many parts of the world?

When there is less work around the agency rate may well be below the "going rate". It’s a supply and demand thing and this goes on with every industry.

But would you rather have £20 a day less than a good rate or £20 a day less than a crap one!!

[luckyjim37]

I do not think it is so much hesitation with some it is the fact they are not interested in joining a uni0n full stop.

That may sound negative but it is a fact. One point I have just picked up on reading back and I may have misunderstood the point (not the first time). One of the posts here was saying the offshore supervisor should have a list of who is in the uni0n on the team. I mentioned the risk of a two tier industry and I think that is the sort of thing that concerns me most of all.

When the guys on a team start to diferenciate between who is and who is not a uni0n member when at the end of the day that is a totally personal choice I think problems will occur.

As for day rates regardless of opinion on uni0n if an agency offers you a job you can always say no or attempt to negotiate a little.

The fact remains when the work is scarce you take what you can get if it is a little down on the year before but is still more than you need to live then so be it.

I do however have a question. Are agency divers covered in the pay agreement?

[KeyserSoze]

There may be some divers on staff contract, however all the divers that we know of are all direct dayraters.

These boys seem to be doing ok and are quite happy being in the uni0n.

One question I would like to ask , and this is not directed at luckyjim but all readers.

If you are not interested in joining a uni0n does this mean that you are not interested in standardisation of pay, regulation of working conditions and safety?

Answers on a posting please……….!

[Savante]

850\day for a subsea engineer to do a 3.4u role. who’s the fool ?

thank you very much though, that was the kick in the arse I really needed ! I think when we get comfortable we get lazy and complacent. That was just the punch in the nuts I needed !!

[Ray Shields]

If you are not interested in joining a uni0n does this mean that you are not interested in standardisation of pay, regulation of working conditions and safety?

Answers on a posting please……….!

Just because an individual would either not wish to join THAT particular uni0n or any other uni0n, that has nothing to do with safety. You do NOT have to be a uni0n member to be interested in any of those you list.

[James McLauchlan]

Just because an individual would either not wish to join THAT particular uni0n or any other uni0n, that has nothing to do with safety. You do NOT have to be a uni0n member to be interested in any of those you list.

True. However, trying to stay with the topic (Agency day rates) when taking standardisation into account and looking at the Diving industry compared with the ROV side of the industry who has achieved a better result in the respect of day rates?

I would say the divers. (I’m open to comment on that mind you)

The next question I would ask people to consider is:

Why is that then?

It’s certainly not because they have been looking after their own day rates as individuals.

Mind you, the last thing someone would want to have to worry about is paying more tax because they are receiving a much higher day rate. I can see how that might put someone off of seeking better rates. Not!
I was totally dismayed when I read that little ditty being hinted at somewhere further up the thread.

And there was me, in all my innocence, thinking that we would all like to be paid more. Oh well.

[senior]

Abstract
Recent research (Flache, 1996; Flache and Macy, 1996) suggests a "weakness of strong ties." Cohesive social networks may undermine group solidarity, rather than sustain it. In the original analysis, simulations showed that adaptive actors learn cooperation in bilateral exchanges faster than cooperation in more complex group exchanges, favoring ties at the expense of the common good. This article uses game theory to demonstrate that cognitive simplicity is not a scope condition for the result. The game theoretical analysis identifies a new condition for the failure of group solidarity in a cohesive group. Task uncertainty may make rational cooperation increasingly inefficient in common good production. Accordingly, rational actors may increasingly sacrifice benefits from common good production in order to maintain social ties, as their dependence on peer approval rises. 💡

[Author]

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