H M Revenue & Customs TAX Ruling

[Buffel]

I appreciate that it wil be a novel experience,but for once we all need to sing from the same hymn sheet guys. I have had a response from writing to my MP who says that he intends to raise the issue at the highest level and that he always understood that Tax and benefits were two areas that could not be applied retrospectively. I suggest that we ALL write to our MP’s as the more of Darlings colleagues who turn up No 11 with a bag full of complaints the better! The guys on this vessel are all starting to do this,whether you send a standard letter that one bloke drafts or write your own,if we dont do something about this ourselves no other bugger will! There is no point in just bumping gums and then waiting for it to go away.
So so far we have Anne Begg in South Aberdeen and Michael Connerty claiming to take it up with Darling,lets see how many more we can get.

[teamilknone]

How can a ship ‘classed as a ship’ by DNV (or whomever) suddenly not be classed as a ship?

Aagh that old chestnut 🙂
Well it has to have oars ya see 🙂 Not a sail ! Nooooo not sail , Then that there be a sailing SHIP 😯
It be a boat then 😀
I think if we can Nail the F@#kers down with the 3 day period and be on full pay whilst on board the ‘Boat’ then we can have a day off 😀 You know ………work three days have a day off on full pay 😀
This is becoming increasingly hard NOT to justify becoming a Uni0n member !

Even although i didn’t understand a word of that i agree with you 😀

[Paul Bond]

Although i don’t regard it as a God given right to claim my tax back – i think that back dating all this is grossly unfair. Hopefully if they do cut off this line of income then they will see sense and start it from next year.

[comments, directed at another forum member, deleted by admin]

comment by admin (james mc)
As has been said before.. discuss topics in hand by all means and bring up company names if you so wish, but do not take digs at members by name. It’s part of the forum rules, as seen when joining and also posted elsewhere in the Forum. If you want to have a dig at someone, do it offshore face to face, send them a PM, email, or phone them up but please don’t do it on an open Forum. It causes too many problems.

[Pascobalbodeano]

As long as your OK then that’s the main thing eh…………?

No thats not it. Missed the point there. Nevermind, I was only stating the fact on why the incentive was introduced in the first place. To encourage people into the British Merchanct Navy.

"Then surely this affects the Captains, Mates, Engineers, Deckhands even more than the "Other" personnel affected (as you say we get more money???) & brings the incentive for appeal right to their own doorstep too?"

This is also true, it won’t effect these as much as they generally do longer trips with shorter leaves, even if they don’t travel days and such make it a fairly done thing for these guys. I have done my fair share of 20 weeks trips over the years. It will only really effect the people who are doing short trips and working in the construction/offshore industry, the rest of the merchant navy won’t be effected in the slightest.

"Captains and Seamen get regular crew changes ………………… We don’t ! " One vessel I worked on we did a 12 week trip instead of five, that really works out as regular crewchanges in my eyes.

"I know captains earning a damm sight more than I earn and so they should ! " I know cpatains with a very large player in the shipping industry earning less than half what my superintendent earns….

Just stating my points

Just to clarify. I hope to be able to claim my tax back and I will fight for it too. BUT my world ain’t going to end if I can’t though.

Pascobal

[Phoenix]

I can add Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) MP to the list of those stating that they will lobby Darling. Received reply from him yesterday

[JB2]

I’d like to play devils advocate for a sec here and purely for the ROV division(lol).
If I was brain storming in the company meeting for this problem of guys moving from construction boats to a n other rig/beach/tooling etc as what’s the point now because of the tax?
I think it’s not the big problem for them you may invisage!
If you take an average ROV Sup for this you only have to add 12K-17K per anum to keep him as is, which is circa £82 per day for 6 months.
Then you just strong arm the PT 1, Junior techs, Locals et al to carry on regardless and hey presto situation rectified relatively cheaply as they are the bods he has with him now any hoo!
Then you have the guys who are already on the boats now who would actually do something else other than do BED support ever again, you know the ones who can’t sit still for two minutes, not happy if they’re not doing 18 hour days operating 2 Subs at once and filling in for the bridge/survey if need be!
So to get these guys to get all millitant will take some doing I’ll tell you!
I have no idea myself how you will rectify the day rate staff/agency against staff position salery problem to join all for one as the divers did. They only managed that because they are all staff now and open about thier annual pay.
Thoughts on a postcard eh!

[zincanode]

Sorry Pascobal Bodeano old mate,

Your on the wrong tack here. If we’d been told "You’ll loose the SED in Jan 2009" we’d have taken it on the chin, wiped away the tears and got on with it.

What is difficult to justify is the backdating to Jan 2008 or even further. Now there’s a bargaining chip the clowns in Westminster will use if we offshore types threaten to close the show down.

Your view on the origins of the SED (or seaman’s FED as it was in those days) had bally-all to do with supporting the good old Merchant Seaman who had been in WWII – it was a quick fix by the Tory government to help the Brit shipping companies (yes we had them in those days) keep their costs down. Basically it didn’t work because the rest of Europe were subsidising their merchant fleets with cheap loans, so the K fleet ended up in Mr Gillette’s breakers yard in India.

John Prescot was our patron saint until he jumped ship with phoney Tony and now there’s no one about to bang the table on behalf of the Brit Merchant fleet or the offshore workers. As for your MPs, they want your vote so they’ll say anything to get it – but will they put their heads on the block for you? Nah.

I had an email from a guy who said the best person to get on our side is Alex Salmond as the SNP love to rough up Labour over this sort of thing – Scottish Oil, Scottish Jobs, Westminster mismanagement – I think he’s right and suggest you nail your colours to SNPs mast if they’ll push it to the edge!

[pipetracker]

Just to clarify. I hope to be able to claim my tax back and I will fight for it too. BUT my world ain’t going to end if I can’t though.

Pascobal

I take it your not in danger of having to pay back any rebate that’s already been paid to you?

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that HMRC are trying to implement changes that will not technically be public knowledge until published in December this year. The majority of us submitted claims through agents that we believed (and still believe) to be legitimate based upon the rules published at that time. Nobody I have spoken to would have submitted a claim knowing that there was the possibility that it would have to be returned.

Also be aware that HMRC will want interest on the rebate. I know of 2 people who have had to pay back some of their rebate due to an error by the company and were ill informed by HMRC that interest was accruing on a daily basis i.e thay had the money but were told that there was no rush to return it by HMRC officials. This resulted in further bills for hundreds of pounds being sent out to the shock of those involved. Tactics like that are down right underhanded at best, utterly negligent in the middle and borderline illegal at the extreme.

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask!

[Andy Shiers]

More tea anyone 🙂

[Buffel]

Guys, as previously mentioned ,write to your MP, I have written to both the Westminster MP and to Alex Salmond as First Minister and John Swinney the Scottish Finance Minister.It’s all well and good making comments about "they just want your vote"! damn right the buggers do,and as at least 2 out of the 3 so far are Labour they really have a lot more to do to get it dont you think! So as part of a Govt that is a popular as a Peodo in a Primary School perhaps they have a bit more incentive to be seen to act.But at the end of the day,if it all goes Darlings way,those who sat back and waited for others to do something will no doubt winge ,shrug and say "told you so,thats why I didn’t bother my too lazy,I’ll just wait for somebody else to do it arse!!" or are we really going to stay with the f**k everybody else I’m allright attitude?

[mind-when-this-was-fields]

Alex.Salmond.msp@scottish.parliment.uk
or the westminster office
salmonda@parliament.uk

[nearlyheadless]

…..I knew the Inland revenue was upto something when I first started receiving letters from them. November 07 had a letter asking me to complete a "Mariners Questionnaire". Filled that in and sent it off to my accountant and was in the system before 07 was over. Late January 08 I had another Inland Revenue Letter asking "a little bit more about my job and how I get to join the ship and if or not im on a regular rota". Sent the letter off to them and a copy to my accountant before going back to Sea. May this year i received another letter from the Inland Revenue (dated OCTOBER 2007) that they now agree that I am a Mariner and subject to paying Class 1 NIC. I have worked for a foreign company and paid by them outside the UK and have a direct debit to Newcastle NIC office paying class 3 NIC. I have had nothing but grief from that Tax office ever since and they have been hustling me for Full Class 1 NI for the whole of the last 4 years. It now appears that my case file is on the desk of another Inland Revenue Office, who are now only interested in the periods that I spent conducting work on a ship in the UK Sector. So one Tax Office wants to hit me for 4 whole years and the other one is just interested in the periods spent operating in the UK. I have been working at sea since 1992! there appears to be NO CONSISTANCY with what they are dictating.

I was worried as to why they wanted a detailed job description. Im sure the Mariners questionnaire along with the detailed job description was nothing more than an "Intelligence gathering mission". I have been at Sea since 1993 and was NEVER grilled to this extent in past years. So I knew thay the Inland Revenue are "upto something". And so it unfolds. Its quite clear that the Inland Revenue are specifically targetting the Offshore Oil and Gas Industry. I have read the findings of the Judge, and to be honest, his reasoning to reach a verdict of "dismissal" was "limp wristed" to say the least. Obviously a Puppet orchestrated to meet the needs of the Inland Revenue.

How can a ship not become a ship, despite it being designed by Naval architects, built by a shipyard, certified by a classification society and manned by Seafarers?. Define "stationary" another weak point. Dynamic positioning has a footprint on all six degrees of freedom. An installation doesnt experience all six degrees of freedom. A ship is not an installation, its temporary by nature for task operations only. We arent profiteering from the Exploration or Exploitation of the Mineral concerned. the oil company does. We dont: we are a service company to the oil Client concerned. our pay is incidental to the Oil Company who does profiteer and benefit from the extraction of the Mineral concerned.

Gordon Brown is the instigator of this ruling. His pre budget speech of December 10th 2003 clearly hints his intention of closing the loopholes of SED. (do a Daily telegraph search under finance and type in SED)Seafarers, such as ourselves, dindt exploit such loopholes. These rules came with stringent conditions such as the vessels that are qualifying vessels, foreign Port calls and days out of the UK etc.

How shallow and contrite Gordon Brown is to hold a meeting with all the top Oil execs in the last month or so (early September) with the aim of trying to maximise North Sea production to stabilise the rising costs of crude. Its workers like us, who actually work on the "coal face" so to speak, who actually does the work to enhance or develop such infrastructure to maximise production.

We must remember NOT to vote labour at the next election and to remove GB from office as clearly he is a man not to be trusted in any shape or form. Its not only the 40% Tax Bracket that affetcs the majority of us. Its the additional 12% National Insurance Contributions that will kick-in as well as the majority of us are on the UEL (Upper earnings level). So in real terms its a 52% Pay cut!!!!

This ruling does affect me, im at sea right now (Norwegian Sector) and the outcome of this ruling will determine wether I carry on with my career and to work just enough days not to get hammered by the 40% income tax bracket and 12% NIC or to simply quit it and not allow the uk IR to milk me like a cash-cow. There are far easier jobs shoreside with shyte pay but without the long hours and hardships of being away from home and loved ones and without the constant "Gestapo tactics from some by-gone Nazi era" as excercised by the Inland Revenue right now,who are clearly out to get us. Its "State sponsored Terrorism", clearly targetting individuals like ourselves who bring foreign money into the UK. The Government should be throwing rose petals in front of us and not creating a climate of fear within this Industry.

[CheckoffsUglyRumor]

When you write to your MP I recommend the following:-

DON’T cut and paste from elsewhere as the House of commons email filters apparently have spam filters to detect and reject emails with identical content.

DO mention these (in your own words of course):-

1. Retrospective taxation sets a dangerous precedent for other UK taxes, with HMRC set to demand repayment of five figure sums, from individual seafarers.

2. The re-definition of a “ship” for purposes of personal taxation has been made without appropriate maritime experts being called to debate this.

3. This affects UK tax payers employed as mariners anywhere in the world

4. As HMRC will in future judge certain types of vessel on a case by case basis, it is impossible for a mariner to establish potential tax liability before starting work – There are no other group of workers in UK who would be required to start work without this information.

5. It will decimate the UK offshore industry, with many workers taking early retirement, or moving out of UK altogether.

6. The few remaining UK flagged vessels will have difficulty finding British crewmen – foreign competitors are being given financial assistance and tax incentives to use their national crews.

Write/email your MP first and then:

Anne Begg – begga@parliament.uk – Chair of the all party Oil & Gas Committee

Peter Bottomley – bottomleyp@parliament.uk – Chair of the all party Maritime Committee

Finally – JOIN THE UNION!

[CheckoffsUglyRumor]

And BUFFEL – you doughnut – Shrink your icon old son and we’ll all be able to read the site! Ta

[ROV_Monkey]

So, under the new tax regime…If I work 2 month offshore, have a month holiday, go as a driving instuctor for the rest of the time – 40 hrs a week (whoopee) , (lets face it, it can’t be any harder than trying to teach the current crop of throbbers I’m getting as trainees), then I earn exactly the same – with the added bonus of being home and shagging an offshore workers wife of an evening.

And the reason I should work in Angola and pay double tax is????

Monkey

[Author]

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